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FBI Director Waived Polygraph Security Screening for Three Senior Staff

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Re: FBI Director Waived Polygraph Security Screening for Three Senior Staff

#121

Post by parineum »

YZF wrote: post #101
parineum wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A routine Shin Bet polygraph test of a senior officer close to Military Advocate General reportedly exposed new clues about video leak... It should probably read, "A senior officer exposed clues during a polygraph test..." The polygraph is a McGuffin. The interviewer applies pressure by psychologically manipulating the suspect. That's all the polygraph is, psychological manipulation.

Maybe. The same can be said for placebo. But if it works - it works.

There is really no evidence that it works, even in that way though.

The fact that the person is being asked to take the test is a pretty good indication that investigators think there's something there. The suspicion caused the interview and the interview caused the admission. There's no way to know what happens in an alternate universe with no polygraph. I worry a lot more about law enforcement that use it as justification for their erroneous suspicion.

It's a fine tool as long as the interviewer doesn't think it actually works. I've seen enough police interviews on TV shows to know that many of them are believers.

Re: FBI Director Waived Polygraph Security Screening for Three Senior Staff

#122

Post by FridayoLeary »

YZF wrote: post #28
Ms-J wrote: post #12

Polygraphs must not be used as they are completely unreliable and subject to many issues. The government does a lot of security theater and campaigns to make you believe that they are competent.

It's interesting to note that the scandal going on in Israel wrt/ the chief prosecutor of the IDF leaking a prisoner abuse video was uncovered in a polygraph test. "A routine Shin Bet polygraph test of a senior officer close to Military Advocate General reportedly exposed new clues about video leak, prompting Attorney General Gali Baharav-Miara to order a full criminal investigation" https://www.ynetnews.com/article/…

That is one of the most surprising aspect of the story for me, that a polygraph worked. (the revelation itself just confirmed what everyone already suspected).

My theory is that the new head of the Shin Bet who is pretty right wing and took a personal interest in the story was involved. They simply used the polygraph results as an excuse to direct the interview in the direction they wanted. The timing is certainly very interesting.

It's a very high profile case so i guess the truth of the matter will eventually emerge.

Re: FBI Director Waived Polygraph Security Screening for Three Senior Staff

#123

Post by defrost »

parineum wrote: post #121
YZF wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe. The same can be said for placebo. But if it works - it works.

There is really no evidence that it works, even in that way though. The fact that the person is being asked to take the test is a pretty good indication that investigators think there's something there. The suspicion caused the interview and the interview caused the admission. There's no way to know what happens in an alternate universe with no polygraph. I worry a lot more about law enforcement that use it as justif…

Police interviews on scripted TV copoganda dramas, or fly on the wall 'reality' police TV shows?

Either way a great many police are believers in the power of theatre. As they should be, staging power imbalnce, inserting faux sympathy, etc. are all powerful tools with strong potential for misuse which has prompted regulation in a number of countries demanding full recording of interactions with suspects.

Speaking of police interviews on TV shows:

  Opening scene to Season 5 of The Wire.
  Classic moment where a copy machine is used for a lie detector.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgrO_rAaiq0

Re: FBI Director Waived Polygraph Security Screening for Three Senior Staff

#124

Post by refurb »

tootie wrote: post #118
puppycodes wrote: post #26

The only way polygraphs work is by convincing people its an actual lie detection machine. Cops leveredge this belief and tell you that you "failed miserably" so you ultimately confess because "your caught". They are about as accurate as flipping a coin.

That's beside the paint of political appointees getting special treatment. Patel's FBI has been using polygraphs extensively to test political loyalty https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/10/us/politics/fbi-polygraph...

> according to two people with knowledge of the questions and others familiar with similar accounts

After all the examples of the media getting caught playing fast and loose with anonymous sources, I’m going to take this one with a huge grain of salt.

Re: FBI Director Waived Polygraph Security Screening for Three Senior Staff

#125

Post by parineum »

defrost wrote: post #123
parineum wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is really no evidence that it works, even in that way though. The fact that the person is being asked to take the test is a pretty good indication that investigators think there's something there. The suspicion caused the interview and the interview caused the admission. There's no way to know what happens in an alternate universe with no polygraph. I worry a lot more about law enforcement that use it as justif…

Police interviews on scripted TV copoganda dramas, or fly on the wall 'reality' police TV shows? Either way a great many police are believers in the power of theatre. As they should be, staging power imbalnce, inserting faux sympathy, etc. are all powerful tools with strong potential for misuse which has prompted regulation in a number of countries demanding full recording of interactions with suspects. Speaking of p…

I'm not talking about fiction, I'm talking about interviews with detectives on a show like 20/20.

The way they talk about both people refusing to take the polygraph and whether they pass or fail belies a belif in their credibility. I also know some police personally who speak in the same way but that's a much smaller sample size.

Re: FBI Director Waived Polygraph Security Screening for Three Senior Staff

#126

Post by sigwinch »

fnordlord wrote: post #40
tucnak wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not accurate. Polygraphs are not detecting lies, they're used to assess your sensitivities; there are really talented interrogators in counterintelligence, whose full-time job is to fuck with you in subtle ways. To poly a person at will is very much a power move, and some guys fucking love it. But that's a different story all together. Most of the time it's a formality like everything else. In reality, people…

Unpopular because it’s a bad idea. You’re now hiring better liars and scaring away humble talent.

And if you stop doing it, you now have a group who were polygraphed and a group who were not.

Re: FBI Director Waived Polygraph Security Screening for Three Senior Staff

#127

Post by defrost »

parineum wrote: post #125
defrost wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Police interviews on scripted TV copoganda dramas, or fly on the wall 'reality' police TV shows? Either way a great many police are believers in the power of theatre. As they should be, staging power imbalnce, inserting faux sympathy, etc. are all powerful tools with strong potential for misuse which has prompted regulation in a number of countries demanding full recording of interactions with suspects. Speaking of p…

I'm not talking about fiction, I'm talking about interviews with detectives on a show like 20/20. The way they talk about both people refusing to take the polygraph and whether they pass or fail belies a belif in their credibility. I also know some police personally who speak in the same way but that's a much smaller sample size.

This is still subjective feels.

I absolutely believe that some police detectives have real genuine faith in polygraphs being accurate. I strongly suspect a good many do not.

That's orthoganal to how detectives that don't have faith in polygraph results being "real" feel about people that refuse to take them.

Many may feel that people that refuse tests that supposedly tell truth telling from lying can be ranked with people that refuse a search or to unlock their phones ... ie. that's a sign that that they very probably have something to hide.

> I'm talking about interviews with detectives on a show like 20/20.

These are professionals being interviewed who are projecting all manner of things, if they don't actually trust that polygraphs work as scientifically accurate tests that reliably detect lies they are still motivated to not say so and to project belief, that's all part of the theatre of manipulating suspects.

Re: FBI Director Waived Polygraph Security Screening for Three Senior Staff

#128

Post by sigwinch »

refurb wrote: post #124
tootie wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's beside the paint of political appointees getting special treatment. Patel's FBI has been using polygraphs extensively to test political loyalty https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/10/us/politics/fbi-polygraph...

> according to two people with knowledge of the questions and others familiar with similar accounts After all the examples of the media getting caught playing fast and loose with anonymous sources, I’m going to take this one with a huge grain of salt.

DHS and Musk’s people confirmed it. See Reuters back in May 21.

Re: FBI Director Waived Polygraph Security Screening for Three Senior Staff

#129

Post by YZF »

GolfPopper wrote: post #110
YZF wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting to note that the scandal going on in Israel wrt/ the chief prosecutor of the IDF leaking a prisoner abuse video was uncovered in a polygraph test. "A routine Shin Bet polygraph test of a senior officer close to Military Advocate General reportedly exposed new clues about video leak, prompting Attorney General Gali Baharav-Miara to order a full criminal investigation" https://www.ynetnews.com/article/…

> This person would not have been caught if it wasn't for this polygraphs screening. The organization whose crimes she exposed claims she would not have been caught if its wasn't for the polygraph screening. Corrupt law enforcement types love things like polygraph tests because they give them a ready avenue for parallel construction.

That was my own interpretation... but admittedly maybe too strong of a statement. Maybe she would have be caught. That said, the psychological setup in those periodic interviews with a "maybe lie detecting machine" create opportunity to find real issues.

In terms of the details here, the leak wasn't to expose the crimes, it was to resist political pressure [my speculation anyways]. The crimes were being investigated anyways and the video was available internally fairly broadly (and I think maybe externally as well). There was a political storm as a result of the investigation and the arrests made. Apparently leaking the video is was not illegal (though that's subject to some interpretations) because the role of the chief prosecutor is independent but this became more complicated when it required lying to the supreme court to cover the leak.

But yeah, it's possible the Shin Bet already had an idea but just used the polygraph as an excuse/opportunity. While it's understandable in the political climate why the chief prosecutor would leak the video it's also unethical and poor judgement for someone in her role to do so, and then to cover it up. The role of the Shin Bet is to find people in sensitive roles who are secretly doing things they should not be doing (typically spies but more generally people betraying the trust put in them). For those not following, the plot got thicker because she proceeded to throw her iPhone in the Mediterranean and it was found by a swimmer some days later. She also tried to harm herself. It's pretty crazy stuff. Now there are arguments about who should oversee the investigation with the supreme court set to decide today. It's a pretty small/tight legal community and everyone knows everyone, especially at the top. The legal system has been in a battle with the government for some while with the justice minister refusing to accept the last appointment of the chief justice of the supreme court.

Anyways, the polygraph angle is interesting. That this machine survives as a practice in many places tells us something about its usefulness (or at least people's belief in its usefulness).

Re: FBI Director Waived Polygraph Security Screening for Three Senior Staff

#130

Post by refurb »

sigwinch wrote: post #128
refurb wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> according to two people with knowledge of the questions and others familiar with similar accounts After all the examples of the media getting caught playing fast and loose with anonymous sources, I’m going to take this one with a huge grain of salt.

DHS and Musk’s people confirmed it. See Reuters back in May 21.

From Teuters: "officials quickly launched an investigation to find out who was leaking to the press"

Leading is a bit different than "loyalty tests" isn't it?

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