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What happened to Transmeta, the last big dotcom IPO

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Re: What happened to Transmeta, the last big dotcom IPO

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a classic hill-climbing dilemma. If you start in the same place, and one org has worked very hard and spent a lot of money optimizing the system, they will probably come out on top. But if you start in a different place, reimagining the problem from first principles, you may or may not find yourself with a taller hill to climb. Decisions made very early on in your hill-climbing process lock you in to…

> It's worth noting that Google actually did succeed with a wildly different architecture a couple years later. They figured "Well, if CPU performance is hitting a wall - why use just one CPU? Why not put together thousands of commodity CPUs that individually are not that powerful, and then use software to distribute workloads across those CPUs?" And the obvious objection to that is "If we did that, it won't be compa…

> At the point that Google's "bunch of cheap computers" was new

It wasn't even new, people just don't know the history. Inktomi and HotBot were based on a fleet of commodity PC servers with low reliability, whereas other large web properties of the time were buying big iron like Sun E10K. And of course Beowulf clusters were a thing.

And as far as I know, google's early ethos didn't come as some far sighted strategy, but just the practical reality of Page and Brin building the first versions of their search engine on borrowed/scavenged hardware as grad students and then continuing that trajectory.

Re: What happened to Transmeta, the last big dotcom IPO

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was an intel cpu architect when transmeta started making claims. We were baffled by those claims. We were pushing the limit of our pipelines to get incremental gains and they were claiming to beat a dedicated arch on the fly! None of their claims made sense to ANYONE with a shred of cpu arch experience. I think your summary has rose colored lenses, or reflects the layman’s perspective.

Even the people on comp.arch at the time were baffled. No one believed it.

The discussions on comp.arch from that era are a gold mine. There were lead architects from the P4 team, from the Alpha team, Linus himself during his Transmeta days... all talking very frankly about the concerns of computer architecture at the time.

Re: What happened to Transmeta, the last big dotcom IPO

#123
post #6

Transmeta made a technology bet that dynamic compilation could beat OOO super scalar CPUs in SPEC. It was wrong, but it was controversial among experts at the time. I’m glad that they tried it even though it turned out to be wrong. Many of the lessons learned are documented in systems conferences and incorporated into modern designs, ie GPUs. To me transmeta is a great example of a venture investment. If it would hav…

I was an intel cpu architect when transmeta started making claims. We were baffled by those claims. We were pushing the limit of our pipelines to get incremental gains and they were claiming to beat a dedicated arch on the fly! None of their claims made sense to ANYONE with a shred of cpu arch experience. I think your summary has rose colored lenses, or reflects the layman’s perspective.

I recall one of the biggest concerns around the time was that OOOE techniques would not continue scaling in width or depth, and that other techniques would be needed. This turned out to be true, but it was not some fringe idea -- the entire industry turned on this. Intel designed the narrow and less "brainy" Pentium 4 and hoped to achieve performance with frequency, and with HP they designed the in-order Itanium lines. AMD did some speed demon K9. IBM did the in-order POWER6 that got performance with high frequency and runahead speculative execution. Nvidia did a similar thing to Transmeta too, quite a while later IIRC.

All failures. Everybody went back to more conventional out of order designs and were able to find ways to keep scaling those.

I'm sure there were some people at all these companies who were always OOOE proponents and disagreed with these other approaches, but I think your summary has poop colored lenses :) It's a little uncharitable to say their ideas were nonsense. The reality is that this was a very uncertain and exploratory time, and many people with large shreds of cpu arch experience all did wildly different things, and many went down the wrong roads (with hindsight).

Re: What happened to Transmeta, the last big dotcom IPO

#124
post #6

Transmeta made a technology bet that dynamic compilation could beat OOO super scalar CPUs in SPEC. It was wrong, but it was controversial among experts at the time. I’m glad that they tried it even though it turned out to be wrong. Many of the lessons learned are documented in systems conferences and incorporated into modern designs, ie GPUs. To me transmeta is a great example of a venture investment. If it would hav…

I was an intel cpu architect when transmeta started making claims. We were baffled by those claims. We were pushing the limit of our pipelines to get incremental gains and they were claiming to beat a dedicated arch on the fly! None of their claims made sense to ANYONE with a shred of cpu arch experience. I think your summary has rose colored lenses, or reflects the layman’s perspective.

Not completely baffling. Intel made an attempt to create a Transmeta like hybrid software/hardware architecture at the time on one of their "VLIW" processors. It was an expensive experiment that didn't work out.

Re: What happened to Transmeta, the last big dotcom IPO

#125
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was an intel cpu architect when transmeta started making claims. We were baffled by those claims. We were pushing the limit of our pipelines to get incremental gains and they were claiming to beat a dedicated arch on the fly! None of their claims made sense to ANYONE with a shred of cpu arch experience. I think your summary has rose colored lenses, or reflects the layman’s perspective.

Wasn't Intel trying to do something similar in Itanium i.e. use software to translate code into VLIW instructions to exploit many parallel execution units? Only they wanted the C++ compiler to do it rather than a dynamic recompiler? At least some people in Intel thought that was a good idea. I wonder if the x86 teams at Intel people were similarly baffled by that.

Adjacent but not the same bet.

EPIC aka Itanium was conceived around trace optimizing compilers being able to find enough instruction level parallelism to pack operations into VLIW bundles, as this would eliminate the increasingly complex and expensive machinery necessary to do out of order superscalar execution.

This wasn't a proven idea at the time, but it also wasn't considered trivially wrong.

What happened is that the combination of OoO speculation, branch predictors, and fat caches ended up working a lot better than anticipated. In particular branch predictors went from fairly naive assumptions initially to shockingly good predictions on real world code.

The result is that conventional designs increasingly trounced Itanium as the latter was still baking in the oven. By the time it was shipping it was clear the concept was off target, but at that point Intel/HP et all had committed so much they tried to just bully the market into making it work. The later versions of Itanium ended up adding branch prediction and more cache capacity as a capitulation to reality, but that wasn't enough to save the platform.

Transmeta was making a slightly different bet, which is that x86 code could be dynamically translated to run efficiently on a VLIW cpu. The goal here was two fold:

First, to sidestep IP issues around shipping an x86 compatible chip. There's a reason AMD and Cyrix are the only companies to have shipped intel alternatives in volume in that era. Transmeta didn't have the legal cover they did, so this dynamic translation approach sidestepped a lot of potential litigation.

Second, dynamic translation to VLIW could in theory be more power efficient than a conventional architecture. VLIW at the hardware level is kinda like if a cpu just didn't have a decoder. Everything being statically scheduled also reduces design pressure on register file ports, etc. This is why VLIW is quite successful in embedded DSP style stuff. In theory, because the dynamic translation pays the cost of compiling a block once then calls that block many times, you could get a net efficiency gain despite the cost of the initial translation. Additionally, having access to dynamic profiling information could in theory counterbalance the problems EPIC/Itanium ran into.

So this also wasn't a trivially bad idea at the time. Transmeta specifically targeted x86 compatible laptops as that was a bit of a sore point in the Wintel world at the time, where the potential power efficiency benefits could motivate sales even if absolute performance still was inferior to intel.

From what I recall hearing from people who had them at the time, the Transmeta hardware wasn't bad but had the sort of random compatibility issues you'd expect and otherwise wasn't compelling enough to win in the market vs Intel. Note this was also before ARM rose to dominate low power mobile computing.

Transmeta ultimately failed, but some of their technical concepts in detail have been continued on in how language JITs and GPU shader IRs work today. Or how Apple used translation to migrate off both PowerPC and x86 in turn.

In both the case of Itanium and Transmeta I'd say it's historically inaccurate to say they were obviously or trivially wrong at the time people made these bets.

Re: What happened to Transmeta, the last big dotcom IPO

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't modern CPUs, essetially, dynamic translators from x86_64 instruction set into internal RISC-like intsruction sets?

Folks like to say that, but that's not what's happening. The key difference is: what is an instruction set? Is it a Turing-complete thing with branches, calls, etc? Or is it just data flow instructions (math, compares, loads and stores, etc)? X86 CPUs handle branching in the frontend using speculation. They predict where the branch will go, issue data flow instructions from that branch destination, along with a speci…

This is not true. x86 CPUs have long had micro-op caches that support taken branches which do not result in icache fetches. Probably started with Pentium4's trace cache which was perhaps a little more similar to Transmeta's design, but modern x86 CPUs from Intel and AMD both do dynamic translation from x86 to an internal instruction format that includes branches and likely has some transformation (e.g., some fusion and perhaps cracking).

The motivations and mechanics and performance characteristics are all very different than what Transmeta did, but still it is difficult to argue that modern x86 CPUs do not translate x86-64 into their own internal instruction sets even if you have this branching requirement.

Re: What happened to Transmeta, the last big dotcom IPO

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was an intel cpu architect when transmeta started making claims. We were baffled by those claims. We were pushing the limit of our pipelines to get incremental gains and they were claiming to beat a dedicated arch on the fly! None of their claims made sense to ANYONE with a shred of cpu arch experience. I think your summary has rose colored lenses, or reflects the layman’s perspective.

Not completely baffling. Intel made an attempt to create a Transmeta like hybrid software/hardware architecture at the time on one of their "VLIW" processors. It was an expensive experiment that didn't work out.

The i860 I think originally had a mode. But they then went ahead and doubled down on Itanium.

Re: What happened to Transmeta, the last big dotcom IPO

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's worth noting that Google actually did succeed with a wildly different architecture a couple years later. They figured "Well, if CPU performance is hitting a wall - why use just one CPU? Why not put together thousands of commodity CPUs that individually are not that powerful, and then use software to distribute workloads across those CPUs?" And the obvious objection to that is "If we did that, it won't be compa…

> At the point that Google's "bunch of cheap computers" was new It wasn't even new, people just don't know the history. Inktomi and HotBot were based on a fleet of commodity PC servers with low reliability, whereas other large web properties of the time were buying big iron like Sun E10K. And of course Beowulf clusters were a thing. And as far as I know, google's early ethos didn't come as some far sighted strategy,…

The “bunch of cheap computers” approach was being studied and implemented at the National Labs years before Google showed up. Revisionist history?

Re: What happened to Transmeta, the last big dotcom IPO

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was an intel cpu architect when transmeta started making claims. We were baffled by those claims. We were pushing the limit of our pipelines to get incremental gains and they were claiming to beat a dedicated arch on the fly! None of their claims made sense to ANYONE with a shred of cpu arch experience. I think your summary has rose colored lenses, or reflects the layman’s perspective.

what are you doing now? Retired on a farm?

We’re all retired in some sense. Some on farms, some elsewhere. But in a broader and deeper and more meaningful level, we’re not retired at all…working harder than ever.

Re: What happened to Transmeta, the last big dotcom IPO

#130

Transmeta floundered because Intel simply appropriated their technologies, allowing them to jump ahead in energy efficiency: https://www.computerworld.com/article/1565866/intel-settles-...

  Intel infringed on one of its patents when it inserted a technology called "enhanced SpeedStep" into its models

  starting in 1991 (which predates the Pentium Pro) [...] Transmeta was the first company to emphasize that power consumption was going to be a major headache for chip and computer makers.

  Transmeta's ideas did spark Intel to look more closely at power consumption.
https://www.cnet.com/tech/tech-industry/transmeta-sues-intel...
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