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The government ate my name

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Re: The government ate my name

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> who assume that married couples, and parents/children all have the same last name and hit roadblocks when that expectation does not match reality Speaking as someone whose mom didn't change their name when marrying my dad, with a sister who didn't change her name when marrying my brother in law, with a wife who also didn't change her name when she married me, I think this problem is overblown. I have yet to encount…

I have experienced visa issues due to name differences in papers while traveling between Belarus and Russia. Monetary arguments were necessary to get through. But this was also over a decade ago.

Differences between your name on your passport and your name on your visa? That is completely separate thing.

If you mean different last names as your travel partner, I don’t understand why you having different last names would matter? Doesn’t each person have their own visa?

It sounds like you were just being shaken down. It didn’t matter what your name was, they just picked something bullshit to shake you down with.

Re: The government ate my name

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> who assume that married couples, and parents/children all have the same last name and hit roadblocks when that expectation does not match reality Speaking as someone whose mom didn't change their name when marrying my dad, with a sister who didn't change her name when marrying my brother in law, with a wife who also didn't change her name when she married me, I think this problem is overblown. I have yet to encount…

As someone who has a different last name to my child, I constantly encounter really weird issues where people assume that I don't exist since "First name, Childs last name" doesn't exist in the database.

Really? I am curious to hear an example, because I am struggling to imagine when this would be something they would try to find you by your kids last name.

Re: The government ate my name

#123
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now I'm trying to figure out how one would write out Matthew in Cyrillic, which has two phonemes that are as much of a nightmare for Russian-speakers as "ы" and "р" are for English-speakers. "Мэтью", maybe?

My given name is Anthony, and I have this problem. I grew up in Australia, and visit some family in Poland every other year. The Australian pronunciation of my name is particularly incompatible with Polish, so I change it from 'ænθəni' to (something like) 'ɑːntɒni' . The 'æ' sound at the start of my name is totally foreign, and if I start introducing myself in Polish, then say my name the way an Australian would, the…

The sound [æ] is not entirely foreign to Polish and some other Slavic languages. It often shows up as an allophone of /a/ when it's between two "soft" (palatalized) consonants (e.g. the first /a/ in the word "niania"). The problem for us learning it is that it's not a separate phoneme, and worse yet, the environment in which it occurs in Slavic languages doesn't correspond to anything in English - and, conversely, in English it appears in environments where it could only be [a] or [ɛ] in Slavic languages.

The name itself is, of course, originally Roman, and it's also the name of many Christian saints, so basically every Christian country (not even necessarily a Western one) will be aware of it and have some version of it; for Polish that's be "Anton", I think, same as in Russian.

Re: The government ate my name

#124
post #82
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people with strong opinions over how they want to be named exist. is a total non-issue. You can't, in any country I'm aware of, choose absolutely any name you want.

People's own opinions about what their name is is not a "non-issue", shitty-ass governments or not. Declaring a people's opinions about names stupid and irrelevant (or even illegal) is one of the many ways majorities oppress or even commit slow genocide against minorities.

The relevant laws in many Western countries today exist so that children don't get saddled with patently stupid names by their parents (see also: Elon Musk and his kids).

Re: The government ate my name

#125
post #20

There's an analogous problem for Russians, and presumably folks from other Slavic-language countries. Our last names are gendered; if Ivan Kuznetsov marries Elena, her last name becomes Kuznetsova. (And their children would have gendered last names, too - little Borya Kuznetsov and little Masha Kuznetsova.) So Russian families who move to America have a choice - either deal with people and systems who assume that mar…

This sounds as if it could slowly erode the whole "gendered surname" concept even in the origin countries (e.g. Russia) If you can treat the gendered name simply as a grammatical construct, things are easy - and a "name" like "Elena Kuznetsov" would simply be a grammatical error and never occur as a real name. However, now people from abroad visit the country or possibly even (re-)immigrate and suddenly you do have r…

It's very hard to erode it because Russian, as all Slavic languages, is very thoroughly gendered in general. It's not just nouns (including names) and pronouns, but adjectives and verbs also have gender that must agree with the noun they apply to.

Coincidentally, this actually makes it possible to have names that don't conform to the standard gender patterns without much confusion, because as soon as you start talking about what the person is like or what they're doing, you have to specify the gender anyway, so the marker on the noun is mostly redundant.

But also Russia in particular has a long-standing cultural tradition of Russifying foreign names of immigrants. For example, Americans don't have patronymics, but when you get Russian citizenship, they will ask you for the name of your father and assign one accordingly - so e.g. John, son of Donald, would become Джон Дональдович. Similarly last names are often modified by appending -ов or -eв, although this is less common today. Anyway, a name of clearly Slavic origin like "Elena Kuznetsov" would almost certainly be nativized if that person immigrate.

This usually doesn't apply to non-immigrants, though. Thus e.g. Barbara Liskov is still Барбара Лисков in Russian, not Лискова. Which makes it very confusing when a native speaker first sees the last name and confidently decides that it's male.

There are also some weird cases where names with obvious Slavic patterns are not re-nativized for political reasons. For example, Isaac Asimov is originally Исаак Озимов, which has very clear markers of a Russian Jewish name. When his stories were translated to Russian in late Soviet era, though, his name was rendered as Айзек Азимов (i.e. a direct transliteration of English), and it's been said that this was a conscious choice by translators because that way it didn't sound Jewish, which helped get it past censors when "anti-Zionism" was particularly prevalent in USSR.

Re: The government ate my name

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is their database a 7-bit database? Ascii is 7 bits. What people think of as 8-bit ASCII is actually code page 437, the alternate characters added to the PC BIOS in the original IBM PC. Like UTF-8 it uses the most significant bit in a 1 byte ASCII char to determine if it should use a character from ASCII if 0 or the extended 437 characters which includes ü if 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_page_437

Do people think of this as 8-bit ASCII ? I've never heard of it referred to ASCII until now. In fact, I've never heard of it at all (by the time I was old enough to know what a character encoding was, Latin-1 and Windows-1252 were totally dominant IIRC).

In DOS days, codepage 437 was commonly referred to as "ASCII" colloquially in countries where some other encoding was in use for the national script.

Re: The government ate my name

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd think the UK would be alright with it given Irish names are and were reasonably common (at least in parts of the UK), which commonly have fadas in them (i.e. Béibhinn, Seán, Ciarán, etc)

I mean, English itself has diacritics in perfectly ordinary words that many Americans use every day (café, résumé, and yet somebody decided to put "useless" characters like @, ^ or # in ASCII instead.

^ comes from typewriters, where it was used to type letters like â by backing the caret and typing over the last letter. Similarly ' could be used for acute accent - hence why it didn't get a separate letter - and ` for grave accent.

By the way, the accents can often be used to force the right pronunciation of a foreign name on native speakers (at least in US, where Spanish names are so widespread). So e.g. use "á" if you want it to be pronounced [a] etc.

Re: The government ate my name

#128
post #2

Interesting article, I've had some similar (though significantly less severe) experiences with having ä and ß in my names, it seems many U. S. companies are just unwilling/incapable of going beyond ASCII. The government being this sloppy at getting accents right is surprising, I would expect them to value accuracy and a clean paper trail when handling names. http://archive.today/5h4v2

It's a question of scope, though. Imagine you are an American designing a system. What about non-Latin alphabets? Yeah, these should probably be converted, nobody's going to bother with those. What about Hungarians, should we care about their O / Ó / Ö / Ő and U / Ú / Ü / Ű? And Icelanders - should we allow their Ð / Þ? I understand that seeing your name misspelled hurts, but pretending ASCII is enough for everyone i…

ASCII isn't even enough for English.

And yes absolutely we should bring Ð / Þ back for English use and drop those ridiculous digraphs.

Re: The government ate my name

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has a different last name to my child, I constantly encounter really weird issues where people assume that I don't exist since "First name, Childs last name" doesn't exist in the database.

Really? I am curious to hear an example, because I am struggling to imagine when this would be something they would try to find you by your kids last name.

At the kid’s school, or sports team, or anything where the kid is the primary agent.

Re: The government ate my name

#130

Moving to a country that doesn't speak English has taught me just how many pronunciations of my last name there are. It's never really bothered me, though, and 90% of the time I'll introduce myself with the "wrong" one. It's easier for everyone.

Samesies; when I moved to Texas, people put the accent in my name on the wrong syllable, but after awhile that began to sound more natural than my name with the accent in the correct place but with an American accent. "PAYvel" sounds worse to me than "PahVEL", so I go by the latter - presumably fucking it up for every Pavel that comes into these people's lives after me.

I'm also Pavel, and it just seems to be one of those names that native English speakers have trouble with.

Protip: it seems to help if you stick an accent on "a": "Pável". In US, people have usually seen enough Spanish to interpret this more or less correctly, and of course it also doubles as a stress marker.

That said, personally, I often don't bother and also go with the default [ˈpei.vɪl] just because it's easier to go with the flow.

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