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German government comes out against Chat Control

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Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am having a legitimately hard time wrapping my head around not being able to prosecute bank fraud because signal exists. Was it impossible before when criminals would talk in person instead over a recorded telephone?

There is a famous case of US Mafia meeting in rooms, or out on streets to discuss their "business activities" face to face to prevent authorities from surveilling the phone calls. The reason we know is because authorities were able to place listening devices into the rooms that they were in, or surveil them from other buildings.

This is analogous to getting a warrant to someone’s phone. (Chat control is like putting a microphone into every room in case the government wants to listen after the fact.)

I’m still unconvinced that this make’s law enforcement’s job so hard that something has to give.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#122
post #53

"anlasslose Chatkontrolle" => Chat Control without cause . Ok, maybe these are not weasel words in this case. The CDU probably wants to present itself as a friend of the people using a popular issue that they don't really care about. My suspicion is that this is exactly why the ChatControl issue is brought up yearly. It distracts people from wars, the economy etc., there is a big discussion and finally the government…

> It distracts people from wars, the economy etc Were this true, some politicians would do it for that reason. It would need to get a lot of attention to be an effective distraction, and it does not. The mainstream press barely covers the issue. Many people who would be directly harmed by it don't even know what's being considered.

Yeah, this isn't being covered at all. At least, up to its significance. Most people are computer illiterate too, so it is unlikely they would understand or care either.

It's no wonder we see the countries that oppose this as well. Makes one think. Sweden's case is peculiar given their military opposed it. I wonder what's going on there.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> an omnipresent panopticon OK, sorry to keep repeating myself here, but... I strongly oppose any kind of "panopticon" like ChatControl. What I would like to see, is, say, Signal complying with lawful interception orders in the same way that any EU telecoms provider currently does. So, provide cleartext contents of communications to/from a cleary identified party, for a limited time, by judicial order, for a clearly…

> I strongly oppose any kind of "panopticon" like ChatControl. What I would like to see, is, say, Signal [...] provide cleartext contents of communications to/from a cleary identified party Those statements simply aren't compatible. Right now, Signal is designed by cryptography experts to provide the best privacy we know how to build: messages are only readable by you or the intended recipient. "Lawful intercept" nec…

For a real-world example of the problem you're describing, China's Salt Typhoon attacks compromised lawful intercept infrastructure in the USA to engage in espionage. A mandatory backdoor in Signal would be at risk from similar attacks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Typhoon

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never trust the CDU. They were the ones pushing for the illegal data retention (Vorratsdatenspeicherung) and von der Leyen from the CDU is big on censorship and mass surveillance. They are just against it now because the country has bigger problems and the CDU has the worst approval ratings in history.

> Never trust the CDU. > Never trust the SPD. I'm borderline not joking that there should be warning labels like those on cigarettes on the ballot when voting.

At voting is a bit late probably. You don't just trust leaders, you watch, you criticize, you communicate and sometimes you act. Political or otherwise as a matter of fact

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#125
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because, similar to the US, they have authoritarian tendencies - strong nationalism and anti-immigration. How are you going to round up the bad people if you don't have surveillance everywhere?

I am unclear on how strong nationalism is an authoritarian signal. Can you go into more detail there?

Because it makes it easier to create scapegoats, and excuses for why restrictions must be created.

Blame the Jews, the immigrants, the trans, and then people will grudgingly accept the Gestapo, ICE, prosecution without proof or courts.

Which then allows you to target the opposition without proof.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#126

This is strange, because not long ago it was Germany (!!) that pushed heavily for mass-sniffing of people. I don't trust this. People should watch very, very carefully what Germany is actually doing next. I would not be surprised if the mass-sniffing comes in a few months when nobody is looking.

They probably missed a fax

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#127
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is considerable opposition in Germany against these things. It’s true that some political circles keep pushing for it, but there is also a strong constitutional and civil basis against it. It’s exceedingly unlikely to happen that “nobody is looking”. The biggest risk is the far right coming into power.

There is a lot of censorship in Germany. People do not care. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Germany https://www.lto.de/recht/hintergruende/h/russia-today-verbot...

Censorship != forced breaking of E2EE. People can care differently about different things.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> an omnipresent panopticon OK, sorry to keep repeating myself here, but... I strongly oppose any kind of "panopticon" like ChatControl. What I would like to see, is, say, Signal complying with lawful interception orders in the same way that any EU telecoms provider currently does. So, provide cleartext contents of communications to/from a cleary identified party, for a limited time, by judicial order, for a clearly…

> I strongly oppose any kind of "panopticon" like ChatControl. What I would like to see, is, say, Signal [...] provide cleartext contents of communications to/from a cleary identified party Those statements simply aren't compatible. Right now, Signal is designed by cryptography experts to provide the best privacy we know how to build: messages are only readable by you or the intended recipient. "Lawful intercept" nec…

> You're proposing that we secure our private conversations with TSA luggage locks

No -- that's an incredibly reductive summary, and the attitude you display here is, if left unchecked, exactly what will allow something equally ridiculous like ChatControl to pass eventually.

There has been plenty of previous debate when innovations like postal mail, telegraph traffic and phone calls were introduced. This debate has resulted in laws, jurisprudence, and corresponding operating procedures for law enforcement.

You may believe there are no legitimate reasons to intercept private communications, but the actual laws of the country you live in right now say otherwise, I guarantee you. You may not like that, and/or not believe in the rule of law anymore anyway, but I can't help you with that.

What I can hopefully convince you of, is that there needs to be some way to bring modern technology in line with existing laws, while avoiding "9/11"-style breakdowns of civil rights.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#129
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is considerable opposition in Germany against these things. It’s true that some political circles keep pushing for it, but there is also a strong constitutional and civil basis against it. It’s exceedingly unlikely to happen that “nobody is looking”. The biggest risk is the far right coming into power.

There is a lot of censorship in Germany. People do not care. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Germany https://www.lto.de/recht/hintergruende/h/russia-today-verbot...

[deleted]

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany will not abandon chat control just like the data perseveration they're so keen on. Europe is preparing for war so they need ways to make opposition more difficult. They're just waiting for the opportune moment where the opposition to these acts won't be as organized or is distracted with something else.

What war, against who? I don't know what kind of narrative you are tying to push here but know that any attempt would immediately meet strong opposition (I've seen the graves of Verdun and I for one would do anything to actively undermine and sabotage any kind of active war effort)

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