Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance • Hacker News Board

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#121

Post by unethical_ban » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 9:27 AM UTC

Lauris100 wrote: post #31

a-french-anon wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can it be used without a smartphone aka "portable telescreen"? Do they explicitly guarantee this'll remain the case? If not, you're just being hoodwinked via cheap convenience.

Everyone has a smartphone lol - i can tell that living in a country with great digital services is a lot less stressful than in country with no digitization and old school paperwork i have gone through both.

Digital is more convenient at the loss of privacy. And no, absolutely not, NOT everyone has a smartphone nor can use one. Go read the thread on teaching iPhones to seniors.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#122

Post by Xelbair » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 9:27 AM UTC

buildfocus wrote: post #92

agnishom wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main concern here is that it will create a narrow bridge (i.e, the digital ID system) between people and various services and opportunities which will make it an easy target for people who wish to wield power against someone. Perhaps your digital ID is needed to open a bank account, get a phone number, sign up for insurance, etc. Now, suppose some fascist government comes into power. They could start cancelling t…

We already have exactly this right now, without digital ids, it's not even theoretical. The government blocks plenty of residents from aspects of society (eg can't work based on visa rules, can't access public/health services at all without legal residency). Currently that's enforced by random members of e.g. medical staff looking at your skin colour to decide whether to ask to check your physical paperwork before th…

>(eg can't work based on visa rules, can't access public/health services at all without legal residency)

You aren't a citizen in such case - you aren't legally allowed to do so. This is another issue with law being in power but it's enforcement over the years was spotty - and people just got used to it.

What you are saying is that government blocks you from committing a crime - which it should try to do so as government's responsibility should be first and foremost towards it's citizens.

Whether you agree if such law is moral or not is irrelevant in this case. As an active participant in the system you could vote for parties that want to change it or campaign to have it changed(even by talking to people) if you find it immoral.

Digital ID on the other hand affects citizens, and allows power abuse towards citizens from government, including unelected officials and middle-level clerks.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#123

Post by wickedsickeune » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 9:28 AM UTC

a-french-anon wrote: post #28

hhh wrote: post #2

I dunno man, I migrated to the Netherlands and our digital ID is an amazing system that literally makes my life easier anytime i need to interact with something. An open standard for the world to use for this seems like the ideal way you would want it to happen. I also personally think we are going to need some form of digital id and hopefully some sort of attribute based credential implementation à la the DECODE pro…

Can it be used without a smartphone aka "portable telescreen"? Do they explicitly guarantee this'll remain the case? If not, you're just being hoodwinked via cheap convenience.

In Denmark a similar system (NemID) gave you a piece of paper with long alphanumeric codes to be used instead of the app. Now it's replaced by another system (MitID) which I haven't verified that supports those, but it's highly unlikely that it stopped supporting physical codes.

It's actually quite a good idea to have this, even if you have a smartphone, in case that you lose access to it temporarily.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#124

Post by lambdaone » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 9:29 AM UTC

Right now email is true One True SSO. I suspect that the root of trust for the digital identity of most people here is something like a Gmail account, unless you have gone to vast efforts to secure personal digital sovereignty in terms of having entirely self-hosted domain, email, DNS etc. The question is: in the long run, do you trust your government more than Google?

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#125

Post by deep_lol » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 9:29 AM UTC

hhh wrote: post #2

I dunno man, I migrated to the Netherlands and our digital ID is an amazing system that literally makes my life easier anytime i need to interact with something. An open standard for the world to use for this seems like the ideal way you would want it to happen. I also personally think we are going to need some form of digital id and hopefully some sort of attribute based credential implementation à la the DECODE pro…

Don't forget couple of things:

Dutch digid is tightly coupled with your address. All documents only go via regular post to your registered address in the Netherlands. No address? Moved to another one? Didn't register new address? Moved out of country? Good luck getting or updating digid.

Digid verification goes to your phone. Lost phone or get stolen? Changed mobile number? Guess what, no digid for you anymore.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#126

Post by pjc50 » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 9:29 AM UTC

zenlot wrote: post #90

I don't know why people complain much about it. In UK especially. For example all EU citizens, after Brexit been "marked", with sort of digital ID. 1. You cannot open bank account without presenting share code from gov.uk, which shows your photo and right to stay and work when generated. 2. You cannot rent without presenting same share code. 3. You cannot go on cruise ship without presenting that. 4. Employers cannot…

Buried in this discussion is the nastier side of UK politics: people (well, marginal voters) want an identity system, but _only_ to inconvenience foreigners.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#127

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 9:32 AM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #35

microtonal wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't they ask some European partners? Some have great ID systems. In The Netherlands we have DigiD, which was developed by a government organization and works very well. IIRC Estonia als has a digital identity system that works well.

It's verboten in UK politics to acknowledge that any EU country might be doing something well and to consider copying it. Only America can be used as a model.

[deleted]

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#128

Post by mytailorisrich » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 9:33 AM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #119

mytailorisrich wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have an address, you have a proof of address. Digital IDs won't magically prove your address, and I don't think there plan is to include addresses. But if Dìgital IDs include address then you'll have to prove your address to the Digital ID first exactly like you prove your address now: with documents. Regarding right to work (you are changing topic): if you are a citizen you can show your passport, if you don'…

> If you have an address, you have a proof of address No! This is another one of those things that ends up being a serious problem for a few people, because the current proof of address standard is "utility bill". > you are changing topic This seems to be particularly bad in the "digital ID" discussion, almost every speaker including official sources seems to mean something slightly different by this phrase.

> because the current proof of address standard is "utility bill".

Because utility bills are the simplest. Obviously you can show a tenancy or lodger agreement, or letters from "official sources".

If you have nothing then Digital IDs won't help you anyway because, if they do include address, you will also need to start by providing a proof of address to the Digital ID system!

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#129

Post by apexalpha » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 9:35 AM UTC

deep_lol wrote: post #125

hhh wrote: post #2

I dunno man, I migrated to the Netherlands and our digital ID is an amazing system that literally makes my life easier anytime i need to interact with something. An open standard for the world to use for this seems like the ideal way you would want it to happen. I also personally think we are going to need some form of digital id and hopefully some sort of attribute based credential implementation à la the DECODE pro…

Don't forget couple of things: Dutch digid is tightly coupled with your address. All documents only go via regular post to your registered address in the Netherlands. No address? Moved to another one? Didn't register new address? Moved out of country? Good luck getting or updating digid. Digid verification goes to your phone. Lost phone or get stolen? Changed mobile number? Guess what, no digid for you anymore.

You can just install and register a new Digid App it's not that complicated.

I mean people have physical passports and they sometimes lose those which doesn't seem to be a blocking issue.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#130

Post by qwopmaster » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 9:36 AM UTC

bapak wrote: post #88

hkt wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everyone has a smartphone. A substantial number of especially older people don't. Plus poor people, and just.. well, offline people whose lives are much more communal than ours. The requirement for a hundreds-of-units-of-currency device to prove who you are is bonkers.

Sorry but aluminum foil level of thinking to me. First of all, my digital ID is still a physical card. Second, you're on the wrong forum complaining that people need a device to do things in life.

But this isn't a conversation about people being excluded from the latest JS framework, this is a conversation about people not using a smartphone being increasingly excluded from pretty fundamental things. App only tickets for public transportation? Grandma can't do that. E-voting? Grandma can't do that. Online banking? Grandma can't do that, because grandma struggles to send a text message much less to navigate a modern app with five different dickbars that is outright designed to get people to sign up for marketing trash.

Having an option for digital ID is great, and there are many potential benefits to it. Requiring a modern smartphone for it is wildly out of touch.