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Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

blog.pragmaticengineer.com

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Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#121

Post by DennisP »

tpoacher wrote: post #51
philipallstar wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When your access to food, housing, heating and healthcare for your family are dependent on your income, you may find yourself facing very difficult decisions This is the time when your ethics are tested. Anyone can do the right thing when they're getting paid for it.

There's a nice Jordan Peterson quote: > There was a lesson to learn from the holocaust. We're always reminded that: "Never forget, we've learned our lesson." "What was the lesson?" That's the question. The lesson is, "You're the Nazi". No-one wants to learn that; If you were there, that would have been you. You might think "Well, I'd be Oskar Schindler and I'd be rescuing the Jews." It's like, no, afraid not. You'd a…

Seems like a better lesson would be "don't be the Nazi."

It's not like it's impossible. The Nazis arrested 800,000 Germans for active resistance activities, and several hundred thousand Germans deserted the military, many of those defecting to the Allies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_resistance_to_Nazism

It wasn't a huge percentage, but we don't know how many actively resisted without getting caught, or resisted in more passive ways. And that was resistance against the Nazis, who had no qualms about killing resistors. Risking or quitting your job to not only do what's right, but avoid getting in trouble with your government, isn't in the same ballpark.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#122

Post by bigiain »

ajross wrote: post #111
potato3732842 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You had record of your correspondance with the lawyer. All you had to do was report it to the liaison and keep punching the clock. Unless you were getting paid more because of the overages the enforcers dgaf about you.

> the enforcers dgaf about you. This is the attitude that lands otherwise-normal-seeming people in jail. They dgaf about you until they do. Maybe the prosecutor needs an easy win. Maybe they have a wealthy patron you offended. You don't know. And casual cheating becomes criminal very quickly. Charlie Javice, to get back to the core subject, seemed to genuinely think she was on the right side of the line. All she was…

> I think a lot of people in our world need to spend a little more time in introspection.

Sadly, I suspect most or all of the investor class of people "in our world" have done this introspection. They've checked with their peers and lawyers, and decided it's a perfectly acceptable risk to have the founders and staff of a company they're already invested in do illegal things and potentially end up in jail, if it makes the odds of that company being a 100x exit - so long as the investors and their staff are all insulated from the illegal behavior and jail time risks.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#123

Post by ghssds »

testing22321 wrote: post #118
jcz_nz wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the very least, these folks need to have their names permanently attached to this atrocity. These weren’t decisions made by “a corporation” - these people sat across a meeting room table and actually concluded that targeting breast cancer patients was an acceptable means to an end. Lori A. Beer was the CIO at the time. Now at JP Morgan.

Na, just ban all of them and all their families from ever having health insurance again so they can suffer the same fate they doomed others too intentionally . Make an example and all that.

It's counter-productive to punish someone for something out of their control. One should not be punished for his parents', siblings' or childs' actions.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#124

Post by mitthrowaway2 »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #102
sltr wrote: post #3

Software developers should sign a code of ethics, like other professions do and then cite it when asked to do unscrupulous things. This would work for activities that aren't illegal but still unethical, like defaulting user privacy choices to open/public. Citing professional organizations like ACM or IEEE would deter retaliation.

Do you mean: A) Software developers should be free to sign a code of ethics, or B) Software developers should be compelled to sign a code of ethics, and be prevented from working if they refuse to sign, or C) Something else.

In Canada, (B) is how it works for engineers, including software engineers.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#125

Post by rahimnathwani »

mitthrowaway2 wrote: post #124
rahimnathwani wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you mean: A) Software developers should be free to sign a code of ethics, or B) Software developers should be compelled to sign a code of ethics, and be prevented from working if they refuse to sign, or C) Something else.

In Canada, (B) is how it works for engineers, including software engineers.

We are using the term 'software engineer' in two different ways:

1. The way most people here on HN, and most people in the US, understand it.

2. The way the laws in most of Canada (but not Alberta) define the term.

AIUI someone can design and develop software for pay in Canada without declaring themselves to be a 'software engineer' and without signing a code of ethics.

Is that correct?

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#126

Post by tverbeure »

DennisP wrote: post #116
array_key_first wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think, for most people, getting the shit beaten out of them is a preferable outcome to losing their job. For most people, their job is the only thing standing between them and being homeless, losing their car, losing their kids, their partner, etc. This is why having a culture that treats firing people as no big deal leads to wack ass incentives. You can make people do almost anything if you threaten their job enou…

The cases in the article were software engineers in the US, and at FTX. Two were engineering directors and the third was a senior engineer. If any of them didn't have plenty of emergency funds set aside, they should have seriously rethought their spending.

I know plenty of people who saved for years to get a downpayment for a house and then used all of that for just that. After that, it will take a while to replenish their emergency fund with very little margin of error. A job loss would be devastating.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#127

Post by rfrey »

em-bee wrote: post #80
surgical_fire wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"losing your job", for a lot of people, is extremely effective coercion. We are not talking about luxury here. A lot of people depend on their salary to pay rent and put food on the table. This is even more pressing if you have a family that depends on you, if you are in need of healthcare, etc. What your post fails to recognize is that in the current system, labor is already a form of coercion. You need to work beca…

If you can avoid those even when unemployed that would be all developed countries except the united states

So yes, the extremely privileged

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#128

Post by jliptzin »

ghssds wrote: post #123
testing22321 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Na, just ban all of them and all their families from ever having health insurance again so they can suffer the same fate they doomed others too intentionally . Make an example and all that.

It's counter-productive to punish someone for something out of their control. One should not be punished for his parents', siblings' or childs' actions.

It’s not even a punishment anyway, they can easily afford to pay for their care out of pocket.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#129

Post by andrewflnr »

mrheosuper wrote: post #25
sltr wrote: post #3

Software developers should sign a code of ethics, like other professions do and then cite it when asked to do unscrupulous things. This would work for activities that aren't illegal but still unethical, like defaulting user privacy choices to open/public. Citing professional organizations like ACM or IEEE would deter retaliation.

I wonder how would that work when you are working for companies like Lockheed Martin, knowing your code will be used in weapon that may kill innocent people.

For a little bit I worried about that, wondered whether I would be morally comfortable working on that technology. Then Russia invaded Ukraine and I snapped back to reality. The consequences of even vaguely good actors not having missiles are worse than the consequences of those actors having missiles. Because you better believe Putin and his ilk are going to have them.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#130

Post by DennisP »

tverbeure wrote: post #126
DennisP wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cases in the article were software engineers in the US, and at FTX. Two were engineering directors and the third was a senior engineer. If any of them didn't have plenty of emergency funds set aside, they should have seriously rethought their spending.

I know plenty of people who saved for years to get a downpayment for a house and then used all of that for just that. After that, it will take a while to replenish their emergency fund with very little margin of error. A job loss would be devastating.

My claim is that that's a bad decision, for exactly that reason. Job loss can happen for any number of reasons, often without warning. Getting a mortgage without any cushion for job loss is a huge risk.

Note also that I'm talking about highly-paid software engineers, not about people in general. Lots of people in the US make way less money than senior software engineers, and they manage to get by. Live at that level and secure your emergency funds first, and you'll be a lot more comfortable dealing with any ethical quandaries at work.

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