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Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

masteringemacs.org

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Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#121

I started having RSI issues 2 years ago, what a way to welcome me to my 30s. It was excruciatingly painful just getting through a workday even with plenty of breaks. I didn't care for building my own keyboard I literally just wanted something to help me not be in pain no matter how weird it looked. I've ended up on a Kinesis advantage 360 pro after spending thousands of dollars on keyboards because I needed something…

I am curious how/if you were formally taught how to type, and whether you hit the keys with sharp and abrupt movements. Of those whom I've seen develop RSI, a common trend I've noticed is they type very "discretely", with a very noticeable pause between each keypress, and use a lot more force than necessary. They were also taught that that was the "correct" way to type, adhere strictly to a sub-optimal fingering patt…

The more generic trend could be people who perfectly hit the same keys the same way again and again.

I've seen it with people religiously sticking to an optimal typing method which limits their hand movement to an extreme. They were crazy fast but RSI was a common subject of discussion, regardless of posture or hardware quality.

We had the same issue with gaming controllers, some with guitar learning etc. There's a limit on how much we're able to repeat the same movement again and again, it depended on what movement and who did it, but the only ones who didn't get any RSI simply avoided extreme repetitions.

And buffs. Sometimes building more and more muscles solve the issues entirely, if that's what you're into.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#122

I started having RSI issues 2 years ago, what a way to welcome me to my 30s. It was excruciatingly painful just getting through a workday even with plenty of breaks. I didn't care for building my own keyboard I literally just wanted something to help me not be in pain no matter how weird it looked. I've ended up on a Kinesis advantage 360 pro after spending thousands of dollars on keyboards because I needed something…

That is exactly my experience, although a bit earlier.

I landed on a Kinesis Advantage 2, at the time as the 360 wasn't even announced yet.

Spent entirely too much money on other ones. There's a reason the Kinesis Advantage line has been around for decades. It really is a just a great ergonomic shape without many compromises. And mine has held up 7 years now with no issues.

Anyone looking for pain relief should really try the Advantage 2 or 360. If the 360 Pro is too expensive don't shy away from considering a used Kinesis Advantage 2. Don't get an Advantage 1 as they have compatibility issues with newer machines.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#123
This may or may not change your perspective on keyboards. Assuming Covid never happened:

- How many hours a day do you spend driving?

- How much do you/did you spend on your car?

- Did you purchase the cheapest car that just filled the need you had (aesthetics, comfort, etc. are therefore off the table, "gets N people to N places")? If not, why not?

- How many hours a day do you spend typing?

- How much did you spend on your keyboard?

If you haven't tried a good mechanical keyboard see if you know someone who has one and spend some time using it.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#124
So I have a WASD ISO full keyboard with Cherry Blue keys that I did custom MacOS keytops for that is starting to lose both keytop prints and the keys are starting to occasionally misfire.

How hard is it to find a full 101/104 mechanical keyboard, with cherry blue, ISO layout (ie big upside-down Enter/Return) with customizable keytops that are in en-US and have the MacOS keytops (L: control/option/command, R: command/option/fn) and the appropriate MacOS function key tops?

All of the ISO that I could find have one or another of the EU layouts, which I don't need or want.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#125

I started having RSI issues 2 years ago, what a way to welcome me to my 30s. It was excruciatingly painful just getting through a workday even with plenty of breaks. I didn't care for building my own keyboard I literally just wanted something to help me not be in pain no matter how weird it looked. I've ended up on a Kinesis advantage 360 pro after spending thousands of dollars on keyboards because I needed something…

I agree with your list except for ortholinear. I firmly believe that row stagger (that you find on regular keyboards) are bad but you should have column stagger (to match the different lengths of your fingers).

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#126

I started having RSI issues 2 years ago, what a way to welcome me to my 30s. It was excruciatingly painful just getting through a workday even with plenty of breaks. I didn't care for building my own keyboard I literally just wanted something to help me not be in pain no matter how weird it looked. I've ended up on a Kinesis advantage 360 pro after spending thousands of dollars on keyboards because I needed something…

As an FYI, I had a similar issue and tried a whole lot of things, including different mechanical keyboards, with which I had a variety of successes and failures. But ultimately what REALLY helped was going to physiotherapy and identifying muscle groups in my back that were weak, causing me to sit weird and support my arms with muscles in my shoulders that weren't designed for that. And because all of this is connecte…

A person in good health with good form can type with reasonable (not ideal) comfort on a standard keyboard on any height table (within reason), but:

(0) Try to feel in your body what kind of static load is on your muscles and joints. Ideally you want your body parts to be in neutral relaxed positions. It's not always possible to completely avoid static load, so try to take routine breaks, change positions, etc.

(1) At all costs avoid having nontrivial wrist extension or flexion (wrists bent upward or downward) while doing repetitive finger motions. Your hands need to be coming straight out of your forearms. The tendons that flex and extend the fingers need to pass through the wrists, and a bent wrist leaves them moving in a weak and uncomfortable part of their range of motion. My understanding is that most keyboard-related RSI comes from wrist extension or flexion.

(2) You should try to get your arms to be supported as much as possible passively from the shoulders. When sitting or standing, the upper arms should be hanging loosely at your sides with back reasonably straight and head up. The keyboard needs to be close enough to the torso for this to be possible. If your elbows are not close to your body, but are forward or out to the side, try to change your position. Being in a position where the weight of the arms is supported by the arm muscles causes fatigue and encourages compromising other joint positions in uncomfortable or damaging ways to relieve the strain. While actively typing the hands do not need to be supported by any kind of surface: let the palms "float" above the keyboard. Use the palm rest for resting, not typing.

(3) For a single-piece flat keyboard, I find it is most comfortable for the plane of the keyboard to be parallel to the forearms. The appropriate front/back tilt of the keyboard is therefore dependent on the relative height of the keyboard and the torso: if the table is high relative to the chair, the keyboard needs to be tilted up at the far side; if the keyboard is on your lap, on a low under-desk keyboard tray, or on a belly-height standing desk, then the keyboard needs to be flat or even tilted down at the far side. The major reason that old typewriters had an aggressive tilt to them was because desks are historically the right height for handwriting (i.e. tall).

(4) I find it helps a lot on a one-piece keyboard to keep the wrists with little to no ulnar deviation (turn toward the outside). It also helps to try to pronate them less (i.e. leave them turned so that the pinkies are a bit below the pointer fingers, instead of rotating them all the way flat). Split ergonomic keyboards eliminate the need to make some of these compromises by allowing the hands to be separated and allowing the sides to be "tented" (so the wrists can be less pronated) and positioned/oriented to eliminate ulnar deviation.

(5) Try not to have too sharp an impact on each keystroke. Ideally use only the necessary force for each key press to register, and try to avoid slamming your fingers down hard through the bottom of the keystroke. A keyboard with better switches can help a lot here, with reliable actuation halfway through the keystroke and tactile/auditory feedback at the actuation point. Key switches that don't reliably actuate unless smashed are the worst.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#127
post #124

So I have a WASD ISO full keyboard with Cherry Blue keys that I did custom MacOS keytops for that is starting to lose both keytop prints and the keys are starting to occasionally misfire. How hard is it to find a full 101/104 mechanical keyboard, with cherry blue, ISO layout (ie big upside-down Enter/Return) with customizable keytops that are in en-US and have the MacOS keytops (L: control/option/command, R: command/…

That might be hard to find, but pretty easy to configure. Take any ISO keyboard you like, buy custom keycaps for the keys you want to look different.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#128
After getting shoulder bursitis two years ago--although the direct cause was sports, not desk habits--I dove into the world of split ergo keyboards. I did get one (a Kyria v3) and learned to type on it at an acceptable speed--although still significantly slower than my speed on a regular keyboard.

Wanting to optimize my layout, I did research into my typing behavior and logged my keystrokes (and storing these logs as securely as I would a password). Analysis did give me notable insights (e.g. by far my most used keys are arrow keys, for selecting text), but my main conclusion was that even during a regular full day of programming preferring my keyboard over my mouse (tiling window manager, hotkeys, browser extension to virtually click on elements using keys), I don't actually type that much, and if I do, it is in bursts, never more than 20 seconds or so.

Although I find typing on a split fun and comfortable, I went back to a regular keyboard because the hit in productivity is not worth it for me. The experiment did teach me how to improve my ergonomics. I optimized my desk height and bought a very flat and less wide keyboard, with the completely unused numpad section chopped off ("TKL") so if I do grab my mouse there is less travel.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#129
post #124

So I have a WASD ISO full keyboard with Cherry Blue keys that I did custom MacOS keytops for that is starting to lose both keytop prints and the keys are starting to occasionally misfire. How hard is it to find a full 101/104 mechanical keyboard, with cherry blue, ISO layout (ie big upside-down Enter/Return) with customizable keytops that are in en-US and have the MacOS keytops (L: control/option/command, R: command/…

Keychron? I realise their prebuilt variants may have ISO layouts only for the various EU market segments, but they all run QMK so you could reflash with en-US keymap. They come with a set of replacement Mac/Win keycaps already, and have a physical switch to flip between the two variants.

Then reshuffle the physical keycaps to match your layout.

(Disclosure: I have two of their ISO keyboards: Q10 and Q11. Both require a wrist support, they are thick.)

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#130
The whole area is full of contradictions:

- mechanical keys - reduced movement;

- buy a custom build - have industrial build quality;

- barely any movement - good blood flow;

- avoid rolling - type fast;

- concave keyboards - tenting;

- fewer keys - minimal;

- uniformly shaped keys - touch typing feedback;

- keep hands on the keyboard - move pointer precisely;

- custom layout - conventional shortcuts.

This is ridiculous. I no longer take this field seriously. I get it, we get bored and need a new toy sometimes. Some indeed acquired a medical condition and need medical equipment to type now.

I noticed when I exercise I can sit comfortably on a firm basic stool, and when I don't I become a princess on a pea.

How about we start with the basics? Good posture, correct hand positions, monitor at the right level, exercise, nutrition. Then an IBM Model M would suffice.

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