Live data from Hacker News

Why is Venus hell and Earth an Eden?

quantamagazine.org

121–130 of 358 posts

Re: Why is Venus hell and Earth an Eden?

#121
post #42

The funny thing is that an oxygen-rich environment is a hell-hole! Oxygen is insanely reactive and will corrode anything. Even early life on earth found oxygen toxic. It was released as a waste product by early life and they were so successful that all that oxygen accumulated resulting in the Great Oxidation Event ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Oxidation_Event ). That likely resulted in many species going exti…

I once heard a similar point and it has fascinated me ever since: an alien observing human culture would be appalled at how dangerous our lives are.

Everything around us is bathed in warm oxygen, just waiting to catch fire! Our homes, our clothes, our fields, our possessions, …our hair. Ready oxidation brings vitality to Earth but it’s also ridiculously dangerous.

Re: Why is Venus hell and Earth an Eden?

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The whole point of Mars (or any other second planet) is redundancy. No. It's some combination of cowardice, greed and ego, by those involved. You can bet your ass those guys are not thinking about saving the species. Lol. Furthest thing from their minds. Solve the Earth's problems on Earth instead, no need to run off to Mars. That's just kicking the can down the road.

> those guys Who do you think are "those guys"? Talking Musk? NASA? All the people who have dreamt of traveling the stars the last 100 years? Remember, we landed on the moon before Elon Musk was born. He's also not the first to talk about landing or living on Mars. And it's not to hedge against us destroying the planet. It's to hedge against an asteroid or other occurrence we can't control.

Musk has a proven track record of using govt subsidies to fund companies to enrich himself immeasurably, and his Nazi turn proves that personal enrichment, not technological advancement, is what is at stake. I don't mean to be preachy but anyone who is providing support for the most racist and perfidious elements of society in Germany and the UK should be disavowed in the strongest terms.

Re: Why is Venus hell and Earth an Eden?

#123
post #119
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worth mentioning that one of the more sane ways to terraform a planet is to redirect specific comets to crash into the planet. It would be "free" in the sense that redirecting an orbit is already actively being studied by NASA for planetary defense reasons. To actually terraform a planet in this method would be unreasonably affordable compared to anything else I've ever heard. edit: Plus, it's nice to split our…

> Plus, it's nice to split our eggs into multiple planetary baskets. Multiple baskets is good, but why planetary?

Too many dickheads with a bright idea of putting nuclear warheads on submersibles with a dead man’s switch on this planet.

Re: Why is Venus hell and Earth an Eden?

#124
Venus is arguably the worst place in the solar system

From another perspective, its atmosphere is "one of the most Earth-like in the solar system", and scientists long ago postulated the idea of establishing floating cloud cities.

Big balloons filled with nitrogen and oxygen would naturally settle at the right altitude, 30 miles above the surface, where gravity, ambient pressure, and radiation aren't far off that of Earth, and temperature hovers around a balmy 86°F.

Since the pressure inside and outside is matched, punctures wouldn't cause explosive decompression, providing time to repair damage or leaks. You wouldn't need a bulky pressure suit to venture outside, just some comparatively simple breathing apparatus, and of course protection from the nasty sulfuric acid in the atmosphere (akin to acid rain). The habs would be coated in Teflon to resist it.

More about this crazy idea here:

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20161019-the-amazing-clou...

Re: Why is Venus hell and Earth an Eden?

#125
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even Mercury is better than Mars ...how? It's further. It has no atmosphere. There is no water or carbon.

How is Mercury further? On average it's the closest planet to earth. Mars's atmosphere is pretty useless for humans.

> How is Mercury further?

Δv, the only metric that matters. Mercury is at 5.5 km/s from LEO, vs 3.6 km/s from LEO for Mars.

Re: Why is Venus hell and Earth an Eden?

#126
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only then do we start terraforming, which takes thousands/millions of years in addition The methods we could realistically launch into in our lifetimes would take thousands of years, not millions (but also not hundreds) [1]. Projects of these timescales have precedent in human history, usually with a healthy dose of religious zeal. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraforming_of_Mars

My impression was that pulverized rock/iron is not actually "soil", so after forming the atmosphere you need lengthy biochemical processes playing out on the surface. I admit though, I don't know too much about this.

I think that we should consider "the future". Yes, it's intangible but consider this; go back 2 centuries and ask someone if they could setup a business concern which produced millions of widgets a year.

They'd think you daffy.

Now beyond that, ask them to produce any manner of modern device with the precision and high consistency we have. Again, they'd think you mad, and think that such was impossible.

Yet here we are.

The next stage in our development via LLMs is not about AI helping humans. It's about robotics. Automated assembly. Robots (not Androids) able to interact with the environment and able to problem solve akin to say.. a mouse.

Soon, entire factories will be entirely automated. Many almost are. We don't need Von Neumann machines to see this future, but we will certainly have robots capable of building entire factories, collecting resources and processing them, and further building machines to spec. And those machines will be able to self-drive, self-operat autonomously.

Anyone playing typical resource games knows about bootstrapping, but once in the asteroid field we're basically resource infinite. Building engines to attach to asteroids, mining asteroids, building factories to create more robots and engines, all of it will be automated.

We toil at self-driving cars, yet this same tech enables self-driving robotics of all types.

So I honestly think that once we bootstrap in space, this sort of thing can happen fast, fast, fast. Decades to send hundreds of thousands of ice-rich resources to Mars.

The soil? Ah, genetic engineering. Really, this is an entirely new field, and frankly is beyond the danger yet benefit of nuclear science. We have the bomb, yet we have nuclear energy and medicine. Well genetics can obviously be far more deadly, and research all over the world, and startups, are already working on employing bacteria and organisms as self-replicating machines to do our bidding.

The dangers are in our face, but oh well! So if we presume survival, then once an atmosphere is produced we can seed the planet with organisms which can survive on rock and yet work with a mania to process it. It's OK if we immediately have moss like grass substitute everywhere. As long as it's working its magic, we get continued O2 production, and we can always create a rabbit pet or something that licks moss to survive. Or are tasty.

My point is, there are indeed many barriers. But we need to view them with where we will be in decades, not where we are now.

Re: Why is Venus hell and Earth an Eden?

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree. But my understanding is the main idea is Mars is supposed to be a "backup" for humanity in the event of a very-low-probability catastrophic event on earth (total nuclear war, solar flare, meteorite collision). In our lifetimes, unlikely. Over the next 1 million years? Maybe.

Yeah, it's full-on fantasy. Why would we as a species waste time terraforming a planet proven to let its atmosphere evaporate into space? Why waste energy to drag materials from Earth there instead of spending the same energy and materials to fix whatever problems Earth has? At least in a billion years we can expect we would be either extinct already from our own actions, or hope to be advanced enough as a species to…

I guess the argument is, that there is just some initial resource usage to get a self sufficient mars colony and all further development can happen without resource strain on earth

Re: Why is Venus hell and Earth an Eden?

#128
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even Mercury is better than Mars ...how? It's further. It has no atmosphere. There is no water or carbon.

How is Mercury further? On average it's the closest planet to earth. Mars's atmosphere is pretty useless for humans.

> Mars's atmosphere is pretty useless for humans

Oxygen, carbon, nitrogen and hydrogen make up 95+ percent of a human by mass. Mars has all four, the first three in the atmosphere.

Re: Why is Venus hell and Earth an Eden?

#129
I can't believe people haven't read James Lovelock's works re the Gaia hypothesis. The feedback loop is that plants produce an oxygen rich atmosphere right up to the point where lightning strikes would start fires that kill off enough plant life, reducing the oxygen in the atmosphere. Send plants to Venus now and in 500 billion years we can move there.

Re: Why is Venus hell and Earth an Eden?

#130
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you admit that terraforming, even after it's 'done', will require an ongoing maintenance effort The Earth hasn't always been hospitale to humans, much less technological civilisation. Chances are, we'll have to do similar "maintenance" at home, too. (Easiest to grasp: deflecting asteroids.) > I suspect terraforming planets is a waste. Far more bang for your buck to build habitats in space from scratch This comes…

> This comes down to how biology works in zero and partial g. Why? Just spin the thing.

> Why? Just spin the thing

Sure. Let's put rats in centrifuges in space and see if they can reproduce successfully. Maybe there is a coriolis boundary. Maybe something weird happens.

Post reply on HN