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Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

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Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#121

Post by metaphor »

Closi wrote: post #92
metaphor wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the provenance of this "30 places year-on-year" assertion anyways? (TFA won't load on my end.) The Times filed Durham 7th @ 859 in FY24[1], 5th @ 898 in FY25[2]. They're now 3rd @ 906 for the current FY. P.S. Chuckling at the perception that a university which ranked top 10 for at least the past decade being characterized as "not as well-regarded"...strikes me as indefensibly elitist. [1] https://archive.is/QN…

I think they are referring to: > Durham University improved by 30 places year-on-year in its students’ evaluation of teaching quality, which was the main driver in securing its third place in the overall university league table Which isn't quite the same as 30 places in ranking as OP suggests, however I agree with their point that moving 30 places on that metric could be fairly suspicious. For example - when I was at…

Appreciate the clarification and perspective.

Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#122

Post by notreallyauser »

DC-3 wrote: post #112
ksec wrote: post #34

I wasn't even aware Oxford has ever loses top 2. May be I am way too stuck in the past. Also surprised Imperial and UCL are lower than what I expected. I remember the joke in "Yes Minister" about LSE. How times have changed. I also wonder the world is now more American focused, how do they rank against Harvard, MIT or other US Universities. 1. LSE 2. University of St Andrews 3. Durham University 4. Oxford and Cambrid…

Given that this is Hacker News, I think it is worth pointing out that Durham's strong suit traditionally is the humanities. In my opinion a CS degree from Oxford, Cambridge, or ICL is considerably more impressive than one from Durham.

Given this is Hacker News, I think we should definitely encourage all Yes, Minister references.

Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#123

Post by frotaur »

patanegra wrote: post #75
yodsanklai wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But does Oxford want the best student or some that had to work harder but ultimately aren't as good? In France, our elite scientific schools recruit students based on anonymous nationwide tests. It turns out most of the recruits come from privileged backgrounds, and I've heard this is more the case today than it was several decades ago. I'd love to see more diversity in these schools, but I prefer to maintain our edu…

Clearly, it's because talented people grow to the top (not just economically, they might be cultural elites, like people working in news, academia). Then, they marry people who are on the top. And they pass their genes and habits. It's nothing bad that their kids end up good students again. I think that French system is superior. It gives fair chances to everyone.

This is not 'clear' at all. What is clear is the correlation. You imply that the cause is 'good genes and habit'.

An equally, if not more valid cause is that having money makes it much easier to get good condition/tutors etc for preparing for the exams.

Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#124

Post by rm445 »

I am a Durham graduate, still somewhat involved with the university via some voluntary roles, and a bit of a 'booster' in the sense that I'll sing its praises to anyone. I also have a postgrad degree from Cambridge and did a little teaching while there. So, I'm quite familiar, and while I'm happy to see Durham get some love, this is bunk.

There is a gulf in undergraduate teaching between Oxbridge and the pack. The supervision system guarantees all Oxbridge students weekly, small-group tutorials, organised and paid for by the colleges, which retain much more academic involvement than other collegiate universities like Durham and York (whose colleges are mainly residences with pastoral care and sports teams). If you go to Oxbridge as an undergrad, you'll be pushed hard and closely supported.

The second gulf is of course the selection effect of every bright child in the UK having Oxford or Cambridge as their first university pick. No-one from an older generation would advise any teenager to do otherwise. (Incidentally, I'm acutely aware that Durham first, then Cambridge is lower social status than vice versa. Because I didn't get in at 17). Everyone knows about this, and we could debate how reputations change, but I suspect my point above about the supervisions system for undergraduate teaching is less well-known.

I could also mention the gulf in wealth between universities (which pays for those supervisions, book grants etc), in age (Oxbridge actively lobbied against new universities in England for hundreds of years), which has a consequence for historic buildings, famous names and prizes, and so on. It all creates an almost unbreakable flywheel of reputational lead for Oxbridge that would take generations to overturn.

Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#125

Post by yardie »

scrlk wrote: post #96
afavour wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Middle class students, knowing they'll be discriminated against, are now applying to US schools I can't take that seriously. Middle class students in the UK would not take on the level of student debt required to study in the US, the sums of money required are vastly, vastly different between the two countries. Sounds like PG has a hobby horse he very much wants to ride no matter what the facts show.

Average student debt is £53k (~$71k USD): https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn01... Given the disparity in middle-class household incomes between the UK and the US, I suspect a majority of UK middle-class students would be eligible for some form of financial aid from US universities (assuming Oxbridge vs US equivalents with need-blind + full-need international admissions), meaning their net cost…

Merit-based, in a lot of cases certainly. But need-based, you’re there to subsidize the university and not the other way around.

Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#126

Post by JdeBP »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #94
dan-robertson wrote: post #84

When I was a student, no one would seriously say they had a ‘doxbridge education’ for the same reason that saying you went to an ‘Ivy League school’ meant you went to a shit one like Brown (idk about the US rankings tbh; basing that on a Lisa Simpson nightmare). That’s still obviously true today. I expect new hires at my employer and our competitors to continue mostly coming largely from Oxford and Cambridge (plus to…

Brown is a shit school? That's a level of elitism I don't often encounter.

You don't watch enough The Simpsons. (-:

It's the daydream sequence from series 10 episode 7, 'Lisa Gets an "A"'.

Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#127

Post by lotsofpulp »

geremiiah wrote: post #57
afavour wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Middle class students, knowing they'll be discriminated against, are now applying to US schools I can't take that seriously. Middle class students in the UK would not take on the level of student debt required to study in the US, the sums of money required are vastly, vastly different between the two countries. Sounds like PG has a hobby horse he very much wants to ride no matter what the facts show.

In British English, "middle class" refers to the well off professional classes or merchant traders. In American English, if I understand correctly, everyone who works is considered middle class.

The beauty of the term middle class is that it can be whatever the writer wants it to be, including leaving it up the reader’s imagination.

Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#128

Post by jfengel »

madaxe_again wrote: post #120
homeless_engi wrote: post #31

I think the real story here might be the line below: "Durham University improved by 30 places year-on-year" Seems a bit suspicious, no? What methodology change led to this result? How can a university that was previously not as well-regarded become the #3 in the country overnight?

Durham is the oxbridge reject university, and it’s a standard opener during freshers week to ask which college rejected them. Me, Corpus Christi Oxford reject, Durham alumnus. What has seemingly happened here is that oxbridge have ramped up their intake of overseas students, who pay a vast sum compared to a U.K. student, thus pushing more U.K. talent to Durham, as you’ll always preferentially give the place to the ki…

I assumed one generally applied to both, no?

Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#129

Post by hnhg »

curiousgal wrote: post #49
fillskills wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While your link is helpful, he did not say that. He specifically mentions changing the admissions standards. Specifically having different standards for different social classes. I have second handedly seen the effects of such discrimination in other societies and it really is crippling to the economy. Be wary of any kind of discrimination specifically one that lowers expected grades.

> Now they have lower standards for applicants from poor families or bad schools. As a result Oxford and Cambridge have sunk to fourth place in the latest Times Good Universities Guide. He did say exactly that.

He also provided no numbers or evidence - did his children fail to get in or something?

Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#130

Post by dan-robertson »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #94
dan-robertson wrote: post #84

When I was a student, no one would seriously say they had a ‘doxbridge education’ for the same reason that saying you went to an ‘Ivy League school’ meant you went to a shit one like Brown (idk about the US rankings tbh; basing that on a Lisa Simpson nightmare). That’s still obviously true today. I expect new hires at my employer and our competitors to continue mostly coming largely from Oxford and Cambridge (plus to…

Brown is a shit school? That's a level of elitism I don't often encounter.

“Mmm, heck of a school. Weren’t you at Brown Otto?”

I think you’re confusing a statement about ranking in a small set (Ivy League schools) for a statement about a bigger set. This isn’t uncommon – iirc there was some big furore a few months ago about admissions to US schools where much of the disagreement seemed to be downstream of different people thinking about different numbers of top or acceptable universities (and then sometimes having a big difference between the intuitive percentages of possible university options and the actual percentages they made up)

I think it’s still the case that people who describe themselves as having gone to an Ivy League school mean a school like Brown. If you went to Harvard then either say it directly or mumble something about a school in Boston – why say something that sounds similarly fancy to the truth but that could also be interpreted as something less elite? Saying you went to school in Boston is much lower in fanciness than Harvard or Ivy League except that most people know what it is code for.

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