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They Thought They Were Free (1955)

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Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#121

Post by ethical_source »

metalman wrote: post #27
csomar wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

And only from reading Chinese history and how the Chinese inteligencia see's it can you get the full wieght that what to them is an inevitable and unstopable cycle. They go so far as to describe the stages and symptoms of each stage, along with specific societal conditions that we continue to replicate with a mechanical precision they gave the name "The turning of the dynastic wheel" The chinese with there long histo…

Are they wrong though? On our side, people like Spengler also model societies as pseudo-organisms with lives that go through birth, adolescence, adulthood, senescence, and death. There's a lot of merit to viewing history as cyclic and decay inevitable even if the details change from iteration to iteration.

Similar conditions produce similar outputs. Perhaps the linkage isn't quite as direct and repeatable as the Chinese think, but they have a point.

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#122

Post by wyldfire »

ethical_source wrote: post #101
tobias3 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a German outside observer I can tell you there is only one side going down the facist path. The "other side" isn't great either. Would be great to have a sane alternative, I guess.

[flagged]

> We have the first amendment and are still free to a degree you are not and will never be.

I'm not so sure about that. "It's no longer free speech [when someone criticizes the president]." [1]

This seems like it's remarkably in line with "they thought they were free" because here you are, thinking you're free. But in fact, your speech is not free because all three branches failed to protect you from this and have now signaled that this will go on.

What does it mean to have the first amendment if it's chilled like this and the only checks available are toothless? If SCOTUS were to review this and find that POTUS were wrong (itself a stretch), what remedy would they have? They would defer to the legislature who has already shown us that even in the face of an attempt to violently overthrow the legislature itself are not willing to use its power to check this demagogue.

[1] https://www.politico.com/news/2025/09/19/trump-no-longer-fre...

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#123

Post by ArnoVW »

roenxi wrote: post #76
HK-NC wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wasnt Germany better off in the decades following WW2 than the British that defeated them?

That is largely irrelevant, they weren't in control of their own destiny at that point. What we learned in the 50s/60s was that the US leadership in the 40s/50s had a really good idea of how to build a country up and score diplomatic wins. They did amazing things in Japan and Germany. Unfortunately, those people appear to all be dead. Now we have whatever Afghanistan and Iraq was meant to be.

As much as I lament the quality of leadership at the moment (and not just in the US) I am not sure that we can equate Afghanistan with Germany.

It is one thing to denazify a "modern western country" that shares most of your values, culture and religion, and that has had institutions for some time. It is another thing altogether to pull off the deal in a country that has never had a working civil society, civil institions, education, etc. Especially if you do not share it's culture or religion, and there is a part of the country that is still actively engaged in a military campaign to obstruct you.

Not saying that it couldn't be done, or that mistakes weren't made. Just that you can't compare the two like that.

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#125

Post by tobias3 »

nerdponx wrote: post #94
tobias3 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a German outside observer I can tell you there is only one side going down the facist path. The "other side" isn't great either. Would be great to have a sane alternative, I guess.

This line of reason is actually becoming more frequently used to justify things. For years, the right wing propaganda machine has been establishing the concept that conservatism and America as a whole is besieged by authoritarian leftists and their smug out-of-outch enablers the liberals. THEY are the authoritarians and they are seeking to destroy America. WE are its defenders, and in the face of existential threat,…

Yes, and then they call this openly a Reichstag fire moment and people still don't get the parallels.

And back then there was a proper systems conflict. People like Krupp actually had to fear being disowned by communists.

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#126

Post by motoboi »

> "How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated ordinary men? Frankly, I do not know. I do not see, even now. Many, many times since it all happened I have pondered that pair of great maxims, Principiis obsta and Finem respice—‘Resist the beginnings’ and ‘Consider the end.’ But one must foresee the end in order to resist, or even see, the beginnings. One must foresee the end clearly and certainly and how is this to be done, by ordinary men or even by extraordinary men? Things might have. And everyone counts on that might.

The experts, people that have dedicated their lives to understand authoritarianism have already given the alarm. Well, a specialist has even moved to Canada for god's sake.

And well, criticizing democracy is fashionable again. High profile figures started saying out loud that "maybe democracies are overrated. maybe democracies cannot deal with the world as it is now". Just listen to what people are actually saying instead of what you think they meant when they say it and you'll hear they saying that an authoritarian leader is what america needs now.

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#127

Post by AvAn12 »

brightball wrote: post #114
nerdponx wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This line of reason is actually becoming more frequently used to justify things. For years, the right wing propaganda machine has been establishing the concept that conservatism and America as a whole is besieged by authoritarian leftists and their smug out-of-outch enablers the liberals. THEY are the authoritarians and they are seeking to destroy America. WE are its defenders, and in the face of existential threat,…

Similar to calling everyone Nazi’s and fascists who has an opposing point of view? When you take a step back it becomes very clear that this escalating messaging is being push onto both sides of the political isle to create these feelings. I remember in the span of two weeks seeing almost identical posts urging people to train because you are going to have to fight. The wording was almost identical only one post said…

In what way are democrats (or, “leftists,” if you must) authoritarian?

Requiring face masks in a pandemic (which happened under the trump admin, in case anyone forgot) is not the same as masked goons throwing brown people into vans.

Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#128

Post by pessimizer »

HK-NC wrote: post #61
metalman wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And only from reading Chinese history and how the Chinese inteligencia see's it can you get the full wieght that what to them is an inevitable and unstopable cycle. They go so far as to describe the stages and symptoms of each stage, along with specific societal conditions that we continue to replicate with a mechanical precision they gave the name "The turning of the dynastic wheel" The chinese with there long histo…

I have a chinese friend who said something similar to this, she believes much of the culture in the modern west is influenced by some shady chinese government attempt at controlling the speed at which said wheel turns, through Tiktok and stuff. While Id normally dismiss her as a nut, we do have rioting in the street arguing over a miniscule group of people wearing clothes dsigned for the opposite sex.

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Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)

#129

Post by ezekiel68 »

Amezarak wrote: post #9
brightball wrote: post #5

I wonder how many people interpret this based on “the other side” rather than objectively?

[flagged]

Everyone voted them down, but there's a kernel of truth here.

We were all in favor of it when Judicial Activism gave us approved Liberal outcomes starting in the latter half of the 20th Century. We didn't realize that the only thing preventing "the other side" from weaponizing the same tactic was a generation of politicians loathe to violate the separation of powers. Once they all passed away, all hell broke loose and here we are...

As the Left used to point out, "You can't legislate morality." Except... they did. And now they are shocked -- SHOCKED, I TELL YOU -- to discover that the Right has lost its scruples in resisting the same temptation.

"Strung up on the gallows prepared for their enemies" (ancient morality tales) and all that.

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