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Scientists may have found a way to eliminate chromosome linked to Down syndrome

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Re: Scientists may have found a way to eliminate chromosome linked to Down syndrome

#121

Post by llmthrow103 »

zarzavat wrote: post #83
SJC_Hacker wrote: post #57

It was well on its way to being eliminated in much of the First World through screening during pregnancy at around 2-3 months. Alot of mothers were electing to terminate the pregnancy and perhaps try again. Especially much of Europe which didn't quite have the moral objections against abortion that the US does, save for a few countries who still have substantial observant Catholics such as Ireland and Poland. Here's…

> Some bioethics experts are concerned I do have to wonder what goes on in the minds of these people. My sister-in-law has a child with Down's syndrome and the situation basically ruined her life. She can no longer work, so they now struggle on a single income, if her husband were to leave her she would be completely screwed. To what end is that in the continuance of ethics?

I understand where they're coming from, but I believe it comes from a place of local and specific concern (the child with Down's syndrome) and not the wider impact.

The way I think about it; 10-20% of known pregnancies (and a larger number of all pregnancies) end in miscarriage, the majority of which are due to genetic errors and chromosomal abnormalities that, unfortunately, mean the fetus wasn't viable to begin with.

While some genetic defects don't kill the baby in the womb, the resulting baby is not healthy and will never be self-sufficient. Terminating these pregnancies lets the couple try again and gives the chance for another, healthy baby to come into the world, and possibly more because they won't have the burden of a many-orders-of-magnitude more difficult and perpetually child to raise.

Re: Scientists may have found a way to eliminate chromosome linked to Down syndrome

#122

Post by smeej »

typewithrhythm wrote: post #115
ghurtado wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, it's stories like this one that make me really question just how ethical it is to completely eliminate Down's from the gene pool. I understand it's the correct medical and scientific thing to do, it's just that it sometimes feels a little bit like eugenics for me.

Seeing a minute fraction of their existence is a rubbish way to make a judgement. Most of they bring to the world is random rage, unspeakable fluids, and unpleasant interactions. But I guess driving past safari style is fine.

What? Are you talking about real, live people with Down Syndrome? Surveys have consistently shown that they and those who live with them (which is no safari) are happier than everyone else. That wouldn't make much sense if "most" of what they bring to the world is "unpleasant interactions."

Re: Scientists may have found a way to eliminate chromosome linked to Down syndrome

#123

Post by vtbassmatt »

shadowgovt wrote: post #105
ghurtado wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, it's stories like this one that make me really question just how ethical it is to completely eliminate Down's from the gene pool. I understand it's the correct medical and scientific thing to do, it's just that it sometimes feels a little bit like eugenics for me.

FWIW, since Down's is caused by (we're pretty sure) mitotic error, it can't be completely eliminated from the gene pool. 99% of cases did not occur on hereditary lines. With or without the existence of the treatment, Down's cases would continue to surface. So it's in the category of "treatments parents could choose to apply to their offspring," and generally parents get pretty broad leeway there in choice of the kind…

As the parent of a child with Down syndrome, I really appreciate the way you and the parent comment approached this topic. Thank you.

Tiny nit, in the US it’s “Down syndrome”, not “Down’s”. Apparently we name conditions with a possessive if named for someone with it (“Lou Gehrig’s”) and without the possessive if named for, say, the person who first described the condition in a medical journal.

Re: Scientists may have found a way to eliminate chromosome linked to Down syndrome

#124

Post by shadowgovt »

vtbassmatt wrote: post #123
shadowgovt wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, since Down's is caused by (we're pretty sure) mitotic error, it can't be completely eliminated from the gene pool. 99% of cases did not occur on hereditary lines. With or without the existence of the treatment, Down's cases would continue to surface. So it's in the category of "treatments parents could choose to apply to their offspring," and generally parents get pretty broad leeway there in choice of the kind…

As the parent of a child with Down syndrome, I really appreciate the way you and the parent comment approached this topic. Thank you. Tiny nit, in the US it’s “Down syndrome”, not “Down’s”. Apparently we name conditions with a possessive if named for someone with it (“Lou Gehrig’s”) and without the possessive if named for, say, the person who first described the condition in a medical journal.

Thank you! I will keep that in mind.

Re: Scientists may have found a way to eliminate chromosome linked to Down syndrome

#125

Post by smeej »

zarzavat wrote: post #83
SJC_Hacker wrote: post #57

It was well on its way to being eliminated in much of the First World through screening during pregnancy at around 2-3 months. Alot of mothers were electing to terminate the pregnancy and perhaps try again. Especially much of Europe which didn't quite have the moral objections against abortion that the US does, save for a few countries who still have substantial observant Catholics such as Ireland and Poland. Here's…

> Some bioethics experts are concerned I do have to wonder what goes on in the minds of these people. My sister-in-law has a child with Down's syndrome and the situation basically ruined her life. She can no longer work, so they now struggle on a single income, if her husband were to leave her she would be completely screwed. To what end is that in the continuance of ethics?

Many ethicists value the continuation of someone's--anyone's--(literal) life over the continuation of anyone else's lifestyle.

I'm not arguing whether you should or shouldn't agree with them, nor saying anything about in which cases. It's just one of the primary things going on in the minds of those people, and you said you wondered.

Re: Scientists may have found a way to eliminate chromosome linked to Down syndrome

#126

Post by vtbassmatt »

orbisvicis wrote: post #94
zarzavat wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some bioethics experts are concerned I do have to wonder what goes on in the minds of these people. My sister-in-law has a child with Down's syndrome and the situation basically ruined her life. She can no longer work, so they now struggle on a single income, if her husband were to leave her she would be completely screwed. To what end is that in the continuance of ethics?

I do wonder if the elimination of all genotypes with Down's Syndrome would also result in a significant reduction in beneficial or benign genes. I've had smart pets. I've never had children. I sometimes envision smart pets as like an X-year old child with Y-year old trait, almost as a person with a disability. If a child can't achieve independence and a life of their own, why let all parties suffer through that ordea…

Why do you think people with Down syndrome can’t “achieve independence and a life of their own”? And what makes you think they, or their families, see their existence as suffering?

Re: Scientists may have found a way to eliminate chromosome linked to Down syndrome

#127

Post by smeej »

llmthrow103 wrote: post #112
kulahan wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's a form of eugenics, however far down the spectrum it may be. edit: I mean to imply here that the overton window is shifted, basically.

Dating apps and services with a beauty/salary standard and long prison sentences for the worst criminals are also a form of eugenics. Many kinds of societal and political changes have a eugenic or dysgenic effect on the population, and I'd prefer to live in a society that has more eugenic policies.

People in privileged or powerful positions often would.

Re: Scientists may have found a way to eliminate chromosome linked to Down syndrome

#128

Post by allthedatas »

shadowgovt wrote: post #105
ghurtado wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, it's stories like this one that make me really question just how ethical it is to completely eliminate Down's from the gene pool. I understand it's the correct medical and scientific thing to do, it's just that it sometimes feels a little bit like eugenics for me.

FWIW, since Down's is caused by (we're pretty sure) mitotic error, it can't be completely eliminated from the gene pool. 99% of cases did not occur on hereditary lines. With or without the existence of the treatment, Down's cases would continue to surface. So it's in the category of "treatments parents could choose to apply to their offspring," and generally parents get pretty broad leeway there in choice of the kind…

[dead]

Re: Scientists may have found a way to eliminate chromosome linked to Down syndrome

#129

Post by ImJamal »

UltraSane wrote: post #30
wyldfire wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if it's the case for folks with Down Syndrome (I suppose it's likely not), but hearing-impaired folks have their own culture to the point that in the past it was seen as some as a betrayal to the community to seek out cochlear implants. I think having their own language does a lot to create unity among them. All that above is to say that I wonder if some folks in Down Syndrome might actually prefer their…

There is absolutely no benefit to Down Syndrome.

I know a guy who has down syndrome and he is the happiest guy I've ever met. Any time I see him, even if he doesn't see me, he is smiling and just looks like he loves life. When he sees me, or anybody else he knows, he gets the biggest grin on his face. When you talk to him, you can tell he is such a happy guy with no stress.

If that is not a benefit then I'm not sure what is.

Re: Scientists may have found a way to eliminate chromosome linked to Down syndrome

#130

Post by smeej »

LargeWu wrote: post #106
lotyrin wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those sound like capitalism problems, not medical ones, to be probably too honest (HN doesn't generally vibe with class consciousness because so many tech bros sell out or dream of selling out one day, but). Society can afford to have support systems for people with disabilities and their supportive family, as evidenced by the fact that it is currently doing so indirectly (by paying enough for the husband's labor tha…

Forget the economic aspect of it, what about the emotional and mental cost something like Downs Syndrome imparts, for both parents? I can't imagine any parent hoping they will have a child that will be utterly dependent on them for their entire lives. It's not at all to say they do not love their children as they are, but nobody seeks to become a parent hoping their child will have severe developmental disabilities.…

I wonder how familiar you are with the reality of a life with DS today. Certainly some children with DS are dependent their entire lives, but others marry, have jobs, support themselves, teach others, etc. And on the whole, both individuals with DS and their family members report higher levels of happiness and satisfaction with their lives than others.

I can say with absolute sincerity that if I happen to conceive a child with DS, I will feel like I won the genetic lottery. Not saying you do or should have the same values, but dismissing the experience of the families who do have these children in them because you have a different set of values that would make it undesirable for you isn't fair either.

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