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Six Years of Gemini

geminiprotocol.net

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Re: Six Years of Gemini

#121

Post by zzo38computer »

vascocosta wrote: post #63

As an early adopter and developer of a couple of service oriented capsules, as time went by my interest faded completely. I'm a strong advocate of live and let live, so this is not a critique or discouragement post, but rather my own perspective. Like many have mentioned already, I personally would have preferred pure markdown and no gemtext at all. Similarly, and although I understand the reasoning behind making enc…

> I personally would have preferred pure markdown and no gemtext at all

The gemtext format is much simpler than markdown, which can avoid the complexity of handling markdown files. (One thing I dislike about markdown and other text-based formats (including JSON, etc) is that escaping will then be required, which can make it messy).

(Nevertheless, you can serve files of any format like you can with HTTP and some other protocols.)

> Similarly, and although I understand the reasoning behind making encryption mandatory, I believe it should be optional in the spirit of KISS

I agree. (My own "Scorpion" protocol does make it optional, for this reason. However, the existing server implementation does not currently implement TLS, although the protocol does allow (and also recommend) it, as long as any files that do not require X.509 client authentication can also be accessed without TLS.)

(Also, if you are serving only static files with Gemini then you could also use Spartan which uses the same file format as Gemini. If you have dynamic files, then it is going to be more difficult because of the differences between the protocols, although it might still be possible.)

> Finally, the argument that it takes a new protocol to avoid a broken user experience, often exemplified by someone jumping from a simple and well behaved HTTP website into a chaotic one [...]

This might miss the point. As the FAQ mentions, there are benefits of a new protocol and file format, including a simplified implementation compared with HTML, and this does not prevent the possibility of also making and/or using well designed websites.

(If you specifically do want a subset of HTTP, HTML, and JavaScript, there is "gemiweb0", and is intended to also be compatible with common web browsers. However, this does not mean that Gemini and other protocols and file formats are worthless; they are still beneficial, in my opinion.)

Re: Six Years of Gemini

#122

Post by zzo38computer »

ndiddy wrote: post #89
vascocosta wrote: post #63

As an early adopter and developer of a couple of service oriented capsules, as time went by my interest faded completely. I'm a strong advocate of live and let live, so this is not a critique or discouragement post, but rather my own perspective. Like many have mentioned already, I personally would have preferred pure markdown and no gemtext at all. Similarly, and although I understand the reasoning behind making enc…

> Even if we consider just the minimalist and well designed websites, this means hoards of content when compared to all gemini capsules. I missed a broader set of topics when I used gemini and ultimately that was what killed my interest. This is definitely Gemini's biggest weakness. I looked around on it a bit when it was gaining attention, and most of the sites I saw were just complaints about how bloated the modern…

There is some good information to be found actually, although it is true that it is not much. However, if you have something to write, then you can write it, and then if they are published then there will be more things to read.

Re: Six Years of Gemini

#123

Post by zzo38computer »

rglullis wrote: post #31
bayindirh wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With all respect, this viewpoint rivals the infamous Dropbox comment.

Problem: you are looking for a way to get rid of the annoying issues of the modern www. What is the solution that solves this with the least amount of work? A) Develop a whole new transport protocol that does less than HTTP, develop client applications that use this protocol, convince a sufficient number of people to use this protocol, at least to the point where the majority of your activity happens there? or B) Ins…

In some ways, A is easier, but not in all ways. Each has its own difficulties.

These are not the only possibilities, though; a third possibility might be:

C) Make a simpler set of features which are compatible with some parts of WWW and implement that.

However, you can do two or all three things if you want to do; you are not limited to doing only one thing. I think all three of these (A, B, C) have their own benefits, so you don't need only one.

Re: Six Years of Gemini

#124

Post by zzo38computer »

Wild_Dolphins wrote: post #44

Gemini is a beautiful idea. However, it works on the basis of mandatory-prohibition. The prohibition is: "You cannot track and exploit your site visitors". This philosophy is enforced 'remotely', by the creators of the Gemini protocol. An identical end-result can be achieved in HTML, by choosing not to use hostile markup. However, with HTML the prohibition must be enforced 'locally', by the ethical-philosophical posi…

> You cannot track and exploit your site visitors

Despite the specification, there is such possibilities as TLS fingerprinting, URL tracking, although it does reduce much of the problems of WWW.

> The problem with the Gemini-protocol is that it introduces an attack vector: The Gemini 'browsers' themselves. The most popular one is not audited; has a huge code-base; and has relatively few eyes-on-it.

You do not have to use the most popular one (I don't use the most popular one); there are many others available as well, and the specification is made that you could hopefully make your own one if you like to do, too.

> if I was a tech-giant / agency profiting from the surveillance-internet, I would definitely write browsers for the Gemini protocol and backdoor them.

Nobody is required to use that specific implementation, and someone might find the backdoors, but it is possible.

> As a former "Don't be evil" company, it would be of great interest to me who was trying to exit my 'web'; how; and why :)

You do not necessarily need to write a new browser to check this; sometimes they already write public documents about these things, and there are many other ways to track it (e.g. by logging other things, by tracking browser extensions, etc).

Re: Six Years of Gemini

#125

Post by Karrot_Kream »

_Algernon_ wrote: post #29
Karrot_Kream wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its a fun concept but the community around it had a strong tendency to want to proselytize their values to you. I enjoyed playing around with it in the beginning but it introduced me to too many tech preachers each with their own similar but slightly different philosophies that they felt like I must know about. It may have changed but that's what largely turned me off from it. I find other networking projects to have…

The selection effects of people seeking out something like this are probably intense, but that was also true for the early web, and is what people liked about the early web.

> that was also true for the early web, and is what people liked about the early web

Depends. There were parts of the early web that were like this, sure, but there were definitely more, for lack of a better term, "schizo" parts of the early web. I mostly stuck around those parts. A friend I met online got really into some of those intentional community sites and we eventually drifted because it wasn't my thing.

Different networking projects have different cultures though so no skin off my back really. Live and let live and I'm glad the folks who want a community based around anarcho-socialist values have a place to vibe.

Re: Six Years of Gemini

#126

Post by rglullis »

shakna wrote: post #118
rglullis wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a vast continuum of variation, and is full of niches and clines that are intentionally distant from the global mean. But they are all sharing the same world . It's all the same ecosystem. My objection is not because I am against people trying to do something different. My objection is to this delusional idea that this work needs to be isolated from everyone else. It's sterile at best and elitist at worst.

Its a protocol. A means of communication. It can't be isolated, by definition. There's plenty of cross-platform things using it. It is as elitest and isolationist as RSS - another limited system. The format is limited, to preserve the user agent's ability to act... As a user's agent, rather than the host. That's it. Your objection seems to be... People walking a path you wouldn't.

If you want "an user agent that can act as a user's agent", you just need to use a better user agent. They exist. They work. You don't need a whole transport protocol to achieve that.

My objection is to the justifications people are using to walk this path. Even here, we have different people trying to argue completely different things regarding the isolationist nature. You say that it can't be isolated, Gormo says it's "designed to be airgapped".

Look, I've spent quite a significant amount of time exploring alternatives for a saner web. I've got on the microformats train. I know my way around the indieweb. I'm right now working on some stuff that I hope can make the fediverse easier to use and more accessible. I'm not saying to give up the fight. Quite the opposite: to me it seems that the Gemini crowd is just playing with their toy miniature soldiers and claiming that this is the best we can do. It seems immature and poorly-thought out.

Re: Six Years of Gemini

#127

Post by uamgeoalsk »

rglullis wrote: post #126
shakna wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its a protocol. A means of communication. It can't be isolated, by definition. There's plenty of cross-platform things using it. It is as elitest and isolationist as RSS - another limited system. The format is limited, to preserve the user agent's ability to act... As a user's agent, rather than the host. That's it. Your objection seems to be... People walking a path you wouldn't.

If you want "an user agent that can act as a user's agent", you just need to use a better user agent . They exist . They work . You don't need a whole transport protocol to achieve that. My objection is to the justifications people are using to walk this path. Even here, we have different people trying to argue completely different things regarding the isolationist nature. You say that it can't be isolated, Gormo say…

It's worth remembering that people are drawn to projects like Gemini for a range of reasons. That's not a weakness, it's a feature. One person might use it as a minimalist publishing platform. Another might enjoy the simplicity or find it a helpful alternative to today's web. Others might engage with it as a space for experimentation. These aren't contradictory; they’re just different use cases reflecting different priorities.

Saying that "better user agents exist" may be true for some people’s needs, but not everyone shares the same definition of "better." You're welcome to recommend user agents you think are worth trying — many of us are curious and open-minded — but it’s not really about convincing everyone to see things your way. Preferences aren’t problems to be solved.

And honestly, for a lot of us, Gemini isn’t some war we're waging. It’s a community project, a space to build and share things that resonate with us. If it doesn’t click for you, that’s fine. But calling it "masturbatory" or "playing with miniature soldiers" doesn’t add anything meaningful to the conversation. It just makes it harder for others to engage in good faith — and that’s unfortunate, because thoughtful disagreement is welcome. Dismissiveness isn't.

Re: Six Years of Gemini

#128

Post by b00ty4breakfast »

anthk wrote: post #66
b00ty4breakfast wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NewsWaffle gemini://gemi.dev/cgi-bin/waffle.cgi/ takes a url to a regular webpage and spits out a gemtext version that is much more sparse and, for me, is much more readable. For example, here's this very website: gemini://gemi.dev/cgi-bin/waffle.cgi/feed?https%3A%2F%2Fnews.ycombinator.com%2Frss it's honestly the only reason I still use gemini since the rest of it is abandoned gemlogs, rehosts of web content I don't…

There are far more gopher phlogs than gemini gemlogs. Still, both communities overlap of course. Setting up a gopher phlog requires no TLS at all and any machine from 1980 (even maybe ITS with a Gopher client written in MacLisp) will be able to read it with no issues.

that's another large chunk of gemini; rehosted gopherholes. Which is silly unless the originals aren't accessible anymore since gopher is already a minimalist protocol

Re: Six Years of Gemini

#129

Post by b00ty4breakfast »

Wild_Dolphins wrote: post #44

Gemini is a beautiful idea. However, it works on the basis of mandatory-prohibition. The prohibition is: "You cannot track and exploit your site visitors". This philosophy is enforced 'remotely', by the creators of the Gemini protocol. An identical end-result can be achieved in HTML, by choosing not to use hostile markup. However, with HTML the prohibition must be enforced 'locally', by the ethical-philosophical posi…

the userbase for gemini is so miniscule, I can't imagine they could get enough data to want to even bother. Bit like trophy fishing in the puddle of rain runoff next to the stocked pond of monster bass.

Re: Six Years of Gemini

#130

Post by ndiddy »

zzo38computer wrote: post #122
ndiddy wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even if we consider just the minimalist and well designed websites, this means hoards of content when compared to all gemini capsules. I missed a broader set of topics when I used gemini and ultimately that was what killed my interest. This is definitely Gemini's biggest weakness. I looked around on it a bit when it was gaining attention, and most of the sites I saw were just complaints about how bloated the modern…

There is some good information to be found actually, although it is true that it is not much. However, if you have something to write, then you can write it, and then if they are published then there will be more things to read.

Unfortunately, the topics I'm interested in writing about often require images, sound, and video to do a good page covering them.
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