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Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

open-web-advocacy.org

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Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#121

Post by jsnell »

scarface_74 wrote: post #106

Two of the arguments just aren’t true. If you use another browser today even if it does use Apple’s engine, Apple’s not making search revenue from Google. The second point is that it came out in the Epic trial that 90% of App Store revenue comes from games and in app purchasing. Those apps are not going to the web. Third, if the only thing stopping great web apps is Apple, why aren’t their popular web apps for Androi…

I think the argument is that as long as 3p browsers are forced to be just thin WebKit wrappers, it's harder for them to compete against. Why even bother switching from the default when it's going to be the same slop with a different brand?

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#122

Post by kyriakos »

sexy_seedbox wrote: post #115
kyriakos wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't kiwi discontinued?

Yes, last update was April 2025. Their developer recommends users to move to MS Edge, which I have not made the switch just yet.

Just checking if it got updated because I switched to vivaldi after lack of updates (don't feel comfortable with a browser that doesn't get security patches) but kiwi was good and I wished it development continued.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#123

Post by llm_nerd »

izacus wrote: post #95
selckin wrote: post #6

This Apple policy is the only thing stopping chrome from having a full monopoly, and we should be careful trying to remove it

[flagged]

It's a fairly obvious truth. Chrome has a 70% browser marketshare, with the only appreciable alternative being Safari. If Chrome (the actual Chrome and not just a skinned Safari) were allowed on Apple's platforms, overnight a crapload of websites would throw a "Made for Chrome" banner up, dismiss anyone on "unsupported" browsers, and we would rapidly move to a Chrome-only world.

We already went through this in the IE era, and it was an ugly period. We don't need to do that again. That isn't to say we need to endure the status quo, but we are in a dangerous situation where the fixes aren't easy or obvious.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#124

Post by scarface_74 »

lozenge wrote: post #119
scarface_74 wrote: post #106

Two of the arguments just aren’t true. If you use another browser today even if it does use Apple’s engine, Apple’s not making search revenue from Google. The second point is that it came out in the Epic trial that 90% of App Store revenue comes from games and in app purchasing. Those apps are not going to the web. Third, if the only thing stopping great web apps is Apple, why aren’t their popular web apps for Androi…

Yes but there's no reason to use another browser today, because the browsers aren't able to add differentiating features. I don't think you are correct to assume games can't go to the web. Any feature they need from native APIs can be added to the web. Full screen, gyro, vibration, multi touch, payment APIs, notifications, WASM and GPU support are already on the web!

Then why aren’t profitable games based on web technology on Android if it is just Apple holding it back?

But it’s not about the technology even then. Games make money via in app purchases by whales. In app purchasing is easy and they are able to tap into kids spending money. Most parents aren’t going to put their credit cards on kids phones. They will let kids do in app purchases with parental controls that are available on the App Store.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#125

Post by scarface_74 »

jsnell wrote: post #121
scarface_74 wrote: post #106

Two of the arguments just aren’t true. If you use another browser today even if it does use Apple’s engine, Apple’s not making search revenue from Google. The second point is that it came out in the Epic trial that 90% of App Store revenue comes from games and in app purchasing. Those apps are not going to the web. Third, if the only thing stopping great web apps is Apple, why aren’t their popular web apps for Androi…

I think the argument is that as long as 3p browsers are forced to be just thin WebKit wrappers, it's harder for them to compete against. Why even bother switching from the default when it's going to be the same slop with a different brand?

Most people don’t care about the web engine. The ones who use Chrome now on Android care about bookmarks syncing, Google passwords, etc.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#126

Post by pessimizer »

Fluorescence wrote: post #97
kosinus wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that is true when you initially switch and are still comparing browsers, but I certainly no longer check if something broken happens to work in Chrome. Stuff may equally be broken by my adblocker. Too lazy to debug someone else's work.

Too often the only sites I find are broken in Firefox are "necessary" things like financial and medical things. I rarely see any issue with hobby and nonsense sites where "laziness" might be excusable. It's the perverse incentives where companies with a captive audience that can't easily churn will be the ones that ship broken half-arsed sites and not care. One phenomena I am seeing more that makes me boil with fury…

> One phenomena I am seeing more that makes me boil with fury is infinite captchas in Firefox. If Firefox increasingly gets excluded "for security" then...

I can't figure out if this is true. I certainly get constant captchas, but everybody else I know who uses firefox is also ad-blocking, dropping cookies, resisting fingerprinting, forging referers, downloading embedded videos, etc. etc... A lot of us look like anonymous bot traffic because we are trying to look like anonymous bot traffic. I don't know what the solution would be.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#127

Post by llm_nerd »

Jyaif wrote: post #44

> Safari is the highest margin product Apple has ever made. Anybody has the number of committers to webkit from Apple? It would give us a good idea on the margin of the product. Assuming 100 engineers costing Apple 500k per year, that's 50 millions in investment for 20 billion in revenue. > For each 1% browser market share that Apple loses for Safari, Apple is set to lose $200 million in revenue per year. They should…

FWIW, there is a very high probability that Google's $20B yearly payment to Apple is going to vanish, pending a current trial.

Safari is actually a pretty great browser, both technically and from a user perspective, and the complaints often levied on sites like this usually boil down to "Why do alternatives to Chrome exist? So annoying! I'm incredibly lazy and want to just deploy whatever half-baked non-standard ad-benefiting nonsense Google threw into Chrome this month". There was a Safari for Windows for some time but they had a small enough uptake that they abandoned it.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#128

Post by komali2 »

> Safari is the highest margin product Apple has ever made, accounts for 14-16% of Apple’s annual operating profit and brings in $20 billion per year in search engine revenue from Google. For each 1% browser market share that Apple loses for Safari, Apple is set to lose $200 million in revenue per year.

Right now in many MRT stations throughout Taipei, there's ads for Safari. I don't think I ever in my life have seen an advertisement for a web browser until now. I guess now I know why.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#129

Post by resource_waste »

pickledoyster wrote: post #55

On top of that, iOS continues to push Safari on users by disregarding their default browser settings. Steps to reproduce: 0. Select a different default browser, delete the Safari app (just for good measure, even though it's not really possible just like deleting IE in older Win versions) 1. Open the Books app 2. Select text 3. Select Search 4. Press Search the Web 5. Safari search results open as you stare in disbeli…

That literally sounds like Windows 11 with edge.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#130

Post by amelius »

selckin wrote: post #6

This Apple policy is the only thing stopping chrome from having a full monopoly, and we should be careful trying to remove it

We have to put more power in the hands of one organization that fights for our rights.

Consider adding this to your website:
This link does not exist right now, but it will allow EFF to take control when necessary. E.g. by nudging people away from Chrome if it becomes too powerful.
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