Tesla model S eliminates range anxiety • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla model S eliminates range anxiety

#121

Post by CapOpp » Tue, Aug 28, 2012, 8:49 AM UTC

ghostfish wrote: post #89

kennethcwilbur wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I forgot to mention what is maybe the best part. Surprised the article doesn't talk about this. When you drive an EV, acceleration is instant. Like, at the same time your foot goes down, your shoulders get thrown back. Gas cars often take 0.5-2 seconds to get response from the engine, depending on the car & current conditions at the time you accelerate. You get used to the acceleration in the Tesla after a while. But…

I think you're attributing to throttle lag something that is primarily attributable to torque (which isn't to say there isn't throttle response lag, just it's a minor component imo). Diesels are similar to EVs in the sense that you don't need to let the engine rev up or downshift to get that "throw you back" feel quickly. Depends on the car, obviously.

Not many transmissionless or clutchless diesels in the world. It's not even close to the same thing.

Re: Tesla model S eliminates range anxiety

#122

Post by CapOpp » Tue, Aug 28, 2012, 8:51 AM UTC

clarky07 wrote: post #103

enraged_camel wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Irrelevant. The point is that if your destination is less than 250 miles away, then it doesn't matter whether the car charges in 5 minutes or 50.

It's not irrelevant, as the whole point of this particular thread was the hypothesis that many people want to travel further than 250 miles.

"Many" does not mean most. Cars which need to drive more than 250 miles at a time are a niche market. The only reason there is a desire for that amount of range is because of the incredible inconvenience involved in stopping at a gas station multiple times per week.

Re: Tesla model S eliminates range anxiety

#123

Post by CapOpp » Tue, Aug 28, 2012, 8:55 AM UTC

gbhn wrote: post #75

Karunamon wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The other big issue is the time to refill I think that will end up requiring both a social tweak and an infrastructure one. Once people are comfortable with the concept of an electric car, it will be only natural to start requesting (and the necessary civil authorities adding) charging ports in standard parking areas. Imagine in NYC, a parking meter that also has a charging plug for the car. Raise the meter's rate j…

Agreed this is a big problem. If you could pull in, swap batteries, and be back on the road in 5 minutes, that is short enough that range isn't so much an issue. Having to wait for half an hour or more while the car charges is a very painful thing. Perhaps self-driving cars are a solution: if the self-driving EV you're in runs out of power, you just jump out and grab another one. The transportation company worries ab…

I've driven more than 200 miles in a trip once in the past year. In that same amount of time I've spent upwards of 10 hours at gas stations filling up once a week, and another 2-3 hours getting oil changes because I don't have time to do it myself anymore.

Spending an extra hour per year at a Tesla SuperCharger represents a huge time-saver for me, and likely for the vast majority of folks who are complaining about it.

Re: Tesla model S eliminates range anxiety

#124

Post by CapOpp » Tue, Aug 28, 2012, 9:14 AM UTC

acgourley wrote: post #91

clarky07 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have a spare 100k "to be cool" then go for it. If I had that much money to throw around I'd get one as well. It's an awesome car. That doesn't however just make it "my problem." There aren't very many people buying any of these cars, so I assume it's a problem for more than just me. The point I'm trying to make, is that if I'm spending 50-100k on a car, I want it to solve "the driving problem." i.e. if I need…

"There aren't very many people buying any of these cars" - I can't tell if you mean teslas, or electric cars in general. If you mean Teslas - an article in june said there are 10k reserved, which means the waiting list is a year long. If you mean electric cars in general - I would urge you not to compare the leaf or volt to a tesla model S. The former was sold to cost conscious people who ultimately and correctly saw…

There are over 13,000 reservations as of a week ago, and the pace of reservations is accelerating dramatically.

Chevy Volt is doing halfway decent selling 1,800 units per month even if it isn't as good as original projections.

Reservations in August for Model S are already coming close to that pace and the upward trend is accelerating, with each retail store now ramping up to multiple reservations per day.

Tesla is already planning to increase production to a monthly rate that translates into 30,000 units per year, but based on current trends it looks increasingly likely that next year's production might be sold out as early as January or February.

As to who will want the car, it's anyone who wants a new BMW/Audi/Mercedes and who wants to look earth conscious, tech savy, or hip while also saving a ton of money compared to the competition.

Model S Performance (the regular production model as opposed to the limited edition Signature Founders edition used in the test) costs less than BMW M5 even before the huge yearly savings on gas and maintenance (the performance is identical to the tested car, but it has different paint and interior options and is not a limited edition).

Model S 85 costs the same as the 550i GT (its most similar competitor) and saves thousands per year. It also competes with and compares favorably to various 7 series offerings while costing the same or less, and always saving a ton of operating expenses.

Those two cars are the bread and butter of the Model S lineup and are hyper competitive with their conventional counterparts. There are a million plus cars sold in this segment globally and Model S has a big competitive advantage.

Re: Tesla model S eliminates range anxiety

#125

Post by CapOpp » Tue, Aug 28, 2012, 9:17 AM UTC

clarky07 wrote: post #35

underwater wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say "still doesn't come anywhere close to solving the problem". But in really it just doesn't solve your specific problem. Tesla have chosen to tackle for the common case; if they tried to be everything to everyone they'd never have reached production. Don't forget that the Model S costs around $50,000. Most buyers can afford maintain a second car for the kinds of trips you're talking about.

I'm just suggesting that the general population doesn't have 50k to spend on something that only provides one very specific utility. As Musk just pointed out the other day, they are in a do or die 6 month period right now, and might not survive. The other electric car options have mostly been failures. Clearly I'm not the only person who would like to have a bit more utility for my 50k. Keep in mind that you don't ge…

"one very specific utility". Driving a long distance is the niche need, not driving every day and saving a ton of money doing it.

Musk said Tesla might die, but it has nothing to do with sales. They have sales coming out of their ears right now, the problem is ramping up production to get cars to people who are throwing their money at Tesla.

Re: Tesla model S eliminates range anxiety

#126

Post by CapOpp » Tue, Aug 28, 2012, 9:28 AM UTC

clarky07 wrote: post #105

michaelt wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, the article says the Tesla home charger takes 6 hours for a charge, but I guess it needs to be wired directly to be breaker box or something.

Yeah, that a special installation that you would get in your own house. Unless your friend also has this hookup (which if they do they probably need to using for themselves anyway) you have to use the special regular outlet hookup which is ~5 miles per hour of charge.

Most modern homes have a 240v hookup for a dryer or welder in or near the garage. That is more than sufficient to charge the Model S over night.

If your family already has an actual charge station they DON'T need it because they aren't about to go driving 200 miles while you are visiting, and if they are the car can be charged before you get there, or charged after you are done with Model S. It takes 4 HOURS to do a full standard charge. You can charge 2 cars in a night easy.

If your family doesn't have a 240v plug it can be installed for anywhere from $300-$1100. If you go there regularly, just pay to have it installed and it will pay for itself.

Re: Tesla model S eliminates range anxiety

#127

Post by CapOpp » Tue, Aug 28, 2012, 9:43 AM UTC

iblaine wrote: post #107

$105k for the model tested in this article? Price tag anxiety is still an issue.

Thats a Founders Signature edition. It's a double whammy for limited editionness and can't be purchased by the general public. Even the straight Sig's are sold out (there were only 1200 allocated to North America).

The regular production model that this is based on is the Model S Performance. It's identical, except it has different color and interior options (because its not limited edition). That runs ~$85k after the Federal Rebate, which makes it cheaper than the BMW M5 (a similar competitor in terms of performance, if not practicality).

The standard MS85 (the big battery) clocks in at ~$69,900 and is a bit slower than the MSP, but still as fast as a 550i GT, which is basically the same price and a similar car in terms of features.

There are cheaper options, but most buyers will be paying $60k and up for the MS60 (few seem to be interested in the MS40) so I can see how that can generate some sticker shock.

But hundreds of thousands of cars in this price range get sold in the U.S. every year and the Model S is a bargain in that segment, both in terms of its MSRP and especially in terms of its 5 year total cost of ownership.

This is not the Leaf that costs twice as much as its competitors. Model S easily will save its owners $10k+ over 5 years (and likely much more). The Model S is much closer to a $40,000 car in terms of how much money you actually have to have available to pay the monthly payment, insurance, taxes, gas and maintenance.

Re: Tesla model S eliminates range anxiety

#128

Post by protomyth » Tue, Aug 28, 2012, 12:22 PM UTC

CapOpp wrote: post #120

protomyth wrote: post #64

Is there a definitive word on battery performance in sub-zero F weather?

Multiple Roadsters have been running fine for years above the Arctic Circle. There are actually less issues than with gas powered cars. The second largest market for Model S, behind the U.S. is Norway.

I understand people use them in cold weather, but I want to know what the actual range turns into. I have read a 20 - 30% reduction in the forums and the regenerative braking is turned off until the batteries heat up.

Re: Tesla model S eliminates range anxiety

#129

Post by Flenser » Tue, Aug 28, 2012, 1:30 PM UTC

rdl wrote: post #12

timmyd wrote: post #3

Elon Musk is without doubt one the best entrepreneurs around - far less celebrated than many of the other 'uber' entrepreneurs around but with such ridiculously awesome companies. 268 Miles (or slightly less according to the article) is just amazing - less C02, less environmental impact wrapped in a high performance car which - will no doubt - have some detractors as a first iteration against well establish models (c…

I think the next big innovation after EV (+ diesel for long haul, and maybe diesel/hybrid), will be self-driving cars. If you keep cars for 10 years, it's reasonable that a car bought today could be your last without a self-driving mode, even if that self driving mode only covers certain driving regimes (auto-park, which the Japanese prius did a few years ago; highway close-follow road-train mode, auto-braking (which…

until the first self driving car-bomb and then they'll be banned.

Re: Tesla model S eliminates range anxiety

#130

Post by maigret » Tue, Aug 28, 2012, 5:17 PM UTC

Gravityloss wrote: post #71

snowwrestler wrote: post #14

That article seemed filled with anxiety to me. I don't think anything will eliminate range anxiety other than time. As more people get electric cars and start to build their lives around them, their acquaintances will start to see it as more normal. It's almost like the very early days of the automobile, when each driver had to carry a ton of extra gas, since fill stations were few and far between. Like any bootstrap…

What I don't understand is why don't they put a small 20 kW 500 cc one cylinder generator in cars, at the same time they could reduce the battery size quite a lot and still most trips could be made purely electrically. Cost would be a lot lower as well. The average power needed for driving is very low, only 10-20 kW and the battery handles the peaks like when you need to climb a hill or overtake. For example in this…

"why don't they" -> Remembers me of a recent HN discussion ;)

But... Actually you are not far from something. This is actually an approach from Audi: http://green.autoblog.com/2010/03/01/geneva-preview-audi-a1-... From what I read though this approach was not approved in the mother company, VW. Let's see who wins at the end.