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The Grug Brained Developer (2022)

grugbrain.dev

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Re: The Grug Brained Developer (2022)

#121

Post by stavros »

dkarl wrote: post #103
default-kramer wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm convinced that some people don't know any other way to break down a system into smaller parts. To these people, if it's not exposed as a API call it's just some opaque blob of code that cannot be understood or reused.

That's what I've observed empirically over my last half-dozen jobs. Many developers treat decomposition and contract design between services seriously, and work until they get it right. I've seen very few developers who put the same effort into decomposing the modules of a monolith and designing the interfaces between them, and never enough in the same team to stop a monolith from turning into a highly coupled amorph…

We've solved this problem by making the modules in the monolith only able to call each other from well-defined APIs, otherwise CI fails.

Re: The Grug Brained Developer (2022)

#122

Post by avhception »

titanomachy wrote: post #115

“Good debugger worth weight in shiny rocks, in fact also more” I’ve spent time at small startups and on “elite” big tech teams, and I’m usually the only one on my team using a debugger. Almost everyone in the real world (at least in web tech) seems to do print statement debugging. I have tried and failed to get others interested in using my workflow. I generally agree that it’s the best way to start understanding a s…

Using a debugger on my own code is easy and I love it. The second the debugger steps deep into one of the libs or frameworks I'm using, I'm lost and I hate it. That framework / lib easily has many ten thousands of person-hours under it's belly, and I'm way out of my league.

Re: The Grug Brained Developer (2022)

#123

Post by roncesvalles »

titanomachy wrote: post #115

“Good debugger worth weight in shiny rocks, in fact also more” I’ve spent time at small startups and on “elite” big tech teams, and I’m usually the only one on my team using a debugger. Almost everyone in the real world (at least in web tech) seems to do print statement debugging. I have tried and failed to get others interested in using my workflow. I generally agree that it’s the best way to start understanding a s…

I'd love to use a real debugger but as someone who has only ever worked at large companies, this was just never an option. In a microservices mesh architecture, you can't really run anything locally at all, and the test environment is often not configured to allow hooking up a stepping debugger. Print debugging is all you have. If there's a problem with the logging system itself or something that crashes the program before the logs can flush, then not even that.

Re: The Grug Brained Developer (2022)

#124

Post by novia »

titanomachy wrote: post #115

“Good debugger worth weight in shiny rocks, in fact also more” I’ve spent time at small startups and on “elite” big tech teams, and I’m usually the only one on my team using a debugger. Almost everyone in the real world (at least in web tech) seems to do print statement debugging. I have tried and failed to get others interested in using my workflow. I generally agree that it’s the best way to start understanding a s…

Well, what's your workflow? Is there a particular debugger that you love?

Re: The Grug Brained Developer (2022)

#125

Post by giantrobot »

demosthanos wrote: post #107
default-kramer wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm convinced that some people don't know any other way to break down a system into smaller parts. To these people, if it's not exposed as a API call it's just some opaque blob of code that cannot be understood or reused.

> To these people, if it's not exposed as a API call it's just some opaque blob of code that cannot be understood or reused. I think this is correct as an explanation for the phenomenon, but it's not just a false perception on their part: for a lot of organizations it is actually true that the only way to preserve boundaries between systems over the course of years is to stick the network in between. Without a networ…

3. Company structure poorly supports cross-team or department code ownership

Many companies don't seem to do a good job coordinating between teams. Different teams have different incentives and priorities. If group A needs fixes/work from group B and B has been given some other priority, group A is stuck.

By putting a network between modules different groups can limit blast damage from other teams' modules and more clearly show ownership when things go wrong. If group A's project fails because of B's module it still looks like A's code has the problem.

Upper management rarely cares about nuance. They want to assign blame, especially if it's in another team or department. So teams under them always want clear boundaries of responsibility so they don't get thrown under the bus.

The root cause of a lot of software problems is the organization that produces it more than any individual or even team working on it.

Re: The Grug Brained Developer (2022)

#126

Post by ipsento606 »

titanomachy wrote: post #115

“Good debugger worth weight in shiny rocks, in fact also more” I’ve spent time at small startups and on “elite” big tech teams, and I’m usually the only one on my team using a debugger. Almost everyone in the real world (at least in web tech) seems to do print statement debugging. I have tried and failed to get others interested in using my workflow. I generally agree that it’s the best way to start understanding a s…

I've been doing this professionally for over a decade and have basically never used a debugger

I've often felt that I should, but never enough to actually learn how

Re: The Grug Brained Developer (2022)

#127

Post by demosthanos »

titanomachy wrote: post #115

“Good debugger worth weight in shiny rocks, in fact also more” I’ve spent time at small startups and on “elite” big tech teams, and I’m usually the only one on my team using a debugger. Almost everyone in the real world (at least in web tech) seems to do print statement debugging. I have tried and failed to get others interested in using my workflow. I generally agree that it’s the best way to start understanding a s…

There was a good discussion on this topic years ago [0]. The top comment shares this quote from Brian Kernighan and Rob Pike, neither of whom I'd call a young grug:

> As personal choice, we tend not to use debuggers beyond getting a stack trace or the value of a variable or two. One reason is that it is easy to get lost in details of complicated data structures and control flow; we find stepping through a program less productive than thinking harder and adding output statements and self-checking code at critical places. Clicking over statements takes longer than scanning the output of judiciously-placed displays. It takes less time to decide where to put print statements than to single-step to the critical section of code, even assuming we know where that is. More important, debugging statements stay with the program; debugging sessions are transient.

I tend to agree with them on this. For almost all of the work that I do, this hypothesis-logs-exec loop gets me to the answer substantially faster. I'm not "trying to run the code forwards in my head". I already have a working model for the way that the code runs, I know what output I expect to see if the program is behaving according to that model, and I can usually quickly intuit what is actually happening based on the incorrect output from the prints.

[0] The unreasonable effectiveness of print debugging (349 points, 354 comments) April 2021 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26925570

Re: The Grug Brained Developer (2022)

#128

Post by PaulHoule »

titanomachy wrote: post #115

“Good debugger worth weight in shiny rocks, in fact also more” I’ve spent time at small startups and on “elite” big tech teams, and I’m usually the only one on my team using a debugger. Almost everyone in the real world (at least in web tech) seems to do print statement debugging. I have tried and failed to get others interested in using my workflow. I generally agree that it’s the best way to start understanding a s…

I would tend to say that printf debugging is widespread in the Linux-adjacent world because you can't trust a visual debugger to actually be working there because of the general brokenness of GUIs in the Linux world.

I didn't really get into debuggers until (1) I was firmly in Windows, where you expect the GUI to work and the LI to be busted, and (2) I'd been burned too many times by adding debugging printfs() that got checked into version control and caused trouble.

Since then I've had some adventures with CLI debuggers, such as using gdb to debug another gdb, using both jdb and gdb on the same process at the same time to debug a Java/C++ system, automating gdb, etc. But there is the thing, as you say, is that there is usually some investment required to get the debugger working for a particular system.

With a good IDE I think Junit + debugging gives an experience in Java similar to using the REPL in a language like Python in that you can write some code that is experimental and experiment it, but in this case the code doesn't just scroll out of the terminal but ultimately gets checked in as a unit test.

Re: The Grug Brained Developer (2022)

#129

Post by PaulHoule »

stavros wrote: post #121
dkarl wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what I've observed empirically over my last half-dozen jobs. Many developers treat decomposition and contract design between services seriously, and work until they get it right. I've seen very few developers who put the same effort into decomposing the modules of a monolith and designing the interfaces between them, and never enough in the same team to stop a monolith from turning into a highly coupled amorph…

We've solved this problem by making the modules in the monolith only able to call each other from well-defined APIs, otherwise CI fails.

In the Java world both Spring and Guice are meant to do this, and if you have an ISomething you've got the possibility of making an ILocalSomething and a IDistributedSomething and swap one for the other.

Re: The Grug Brained Developer (2022)

#130

Post by [deleted] »

titanomachy wrote: post #115

“Good debugger worth weight in shiny rocks, in fact also more” I’ve spent time at small startups and on “elite” big tech teams, and I’m usually the only one on my team using a debugger. Almost everyone in the real world (at least in web tech) seems to do print statement debugging. I have tried and failed to get others interested in using my workflow. I generally agree that it’s the best way to start understanding a s…

[deleted]
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