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A look at Cloudflare's AI-coded OAuth library

neilmadden.blog

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Re: A look at Cloudflare's AI-coded OAuth library

#121

Post by kentonv »

max2he wrote: post #106

Interesting to have people submit their promts to git. Do you think it'll be generally an accepted thing or was this just a showcase of how they promt?

I included the prompts because I personally found it extremely illuminating to see what the LLM was able to produce based on those prompts, and I figured other people would be interested to. Seems I was right.

But to be clear, I had no idea how to write good prompts. I basically just wrote like I would write to a human. That seemed to work.

Re: A look at Cloudflare's AI-coded OAuth library

#122

Post by koolba »

andersa wrote: post #66
roxolotl wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is my big fear. We’re going to end up in a world where information that isn’t common is significantly more difficult to find than it is today.

It's going to be like the pre-internet dark ages, but worse. Back then you only didn't find the information. Now, you find unlimited information, but it is all wrong.

Content from before the AI Cambrian explosion is going to be treated like low-background steel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-background_steel

Re: A look at Cloudflare's AI-coded OAuth library

#123

Post by throwawaybob420 »

I’ve never seen such “walking off the cliff” behavior than from people who whole heartedly champion LLMs and the like.

Leaning on and heavily relying on a black box that hallucinates gibberish to “learn”, perform your work, and review your work.

All the while it literally consumes ungodly amounts of energy and is used as pretext to get rid of people.

Really cool stuff! I’m sure it’s 10x’ing your life!

Re: A look at Cloudflare's AI-coded OAuth library

#124

Post by marcusb »

_heimdall wrote: post #37
marcusb wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m puzzled when I hear people say ‘oh, I only use LLMs for things I don’t understand well. If I’m an expert, I’d rather do it myself.’ In addition to the ability to review output effectively, I find the more closely I’m able to describe what I want in the way another expert in that domain would, the better the LLM output. Which isn’t really that surprising for a statistical text generation engine.

That's why outsource most other things in our life though, why would it be different with LLMs? People don't learn how a car works before buying one, they just take it to a mechanic when it breaks. Most people don't know how to build a house, they have someone else build it and assume it was done well. I fully expect people to similarly have LLMs do what the person doesn't know how and assume the machine knew what to…

> why would it be different with LLMs?

Because LLMs are not competent professionals to whom you might outsource tasks in your life. LLMs are statistical engines that make up answers all the time, even when the LLM “knows” the correct answer (i.e., has the correct answer hidden away in its weights.)

I don’t know about you, but I’m able to validate something is true much more quickly and efficiently if it is a subject I know well.

Re: A look at Cloudflare's AI-coded OAuth library

#125

Post by a13n »

svara wrote: post #32
donatj wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My question is kind of in this brave new world, where do the domain experts come from? Whose going to know this stuff?

LLMs make learning new material easier than ever. I use them a lot and I am learning new things at an insane pace in different domains. The maximalists and skeptics both are confusing the debate by setting up this straw man that people will be delegating to LLMs blindly. The idea that someone clueless about OAuth should develop an OAuth lib with LLM support without learning a lot about the topic is... Just wrong. Don…

If the hypothesis is that we still need knowledgeable people to run LLMs, but the way you become knowledgeable is by talking to LLMs, then I don’t think the hypothesis will be correct for long..

Re: A look at Cloudflare's AI-coded OAuth library

#126

Post by svara »

blibble wrote: post #74
svara wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit of a skill. Gaining an incorrect understanding of some topic is a risk anyway you learn, and I don't feel it's greater with LLMs than many of the alternatives. Sure, having access to legit experts who can tutor you privately on a range of topics would be better, but that's not realistic. What I find is that if I need to explore some new domain within a field I'm broadly familiar with, just thinking through…

this "logic" applied across society will lead to our ruin

Say more?

Re: A look at Cloudflare's AI-coded OAuth library

#127

Post by mwigdahl »

a13n wrote: post #125
svara wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LLMs make learning new material easier than ever. I use them a lot and I am learning new things at an insane pace in different domains. The maximalists and skeptics both are confusing the debate by setting up this straw man that people will be delegating to LLMs blindly. The idea that someone clueless about OAuth should develop an OAuth lib with LLM support without learning a lot about the topic is... Just wrong. Don…

If the hypothesis is that we still need knowledgeable people to run LLMs, but the way you become knowledgeable is by talking to LLMs, then I don’t think the hypothesis will be correct for long..

We need knowledgeable people to run computers, but you can become knowledgeable about computers by using computers to access learning material. Seems like that generalizes well to LLMs.

Re: A look at Cloudflare's AI-coded OAuth library

#128

Post by belter »

diggan wrote: post #104
belter wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is a teacher will not do something like this: - Confident synthesis of incompatible sources: LLM: “Einstein won the 1921 Nobel Prize for his theory of relativity, which he presented at the 1915 Solvay Conference.” Or - Fabricated but plausible citations: LLM: “According to Smith et al., 2022, Nature Neuroscience, dolphins recognise themselves in mirrors.” There is no such paper...model invents both authors a…

I don't know what reality you live in, but it happens that teachers are incorrect, no matter what your own personal experience have been. I'm not sure how this is even up for debate. What matters is how X reacts when you point out it wasn't correct, at least in my opinion, and was the difference I was trying to highlight.

A human tutor typically misquotes a real source or says “I’m not sure”

An LLM, by contrast, will invent a flawless looking but nonexistent citation. Even a below average teacher doesn’t churn out fresh fabrications every tenth sentence.

Because a teacher usually cites recognizable material, you can check the textbook and recover quickly. With an LLM you first have to discover the source never existed. That verification cost is higher, the more complex task you are trying to achieve.

A LLM will give you a perfect paragraph about the AWS Database Migration service, the list of supported databases, and then include in there a data flow like on-prem to on-prem data that is not supported...Relying on an LLM is like flying with a friendly copilot but who has multiple personality disorder. You dont know which day he will forget to take his meds :-)

Stressful and mentally exhausting in a different kind of way....

Re: A look at Cloudflare's AI-coded OAuth library

#129

Post by [deleted] »

m11a wrote: post #94
junon wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the flip side, I wanted to see what common 8 layer PCB stackups were yesterday. ChatGPT wasn't giving me an answer that really made sense. After googling a bit, I realized almost all of the top results were AI generated, and also had very little in the way of real experience or advice. It was extremely frustrating.

The solution is kagi.com imo. Before AI generated results, the first page of Google was SEO-optimised crap blogs. The internet has been hard to search for a while.

[deleted]

Re: A look at Cloudflare's AI-coded OAuth library

#130

Post by catlifeonmars »

svara wrote: post #32
donatj wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My question is kind of in this brave new world, where do the domain experts come from? Whose going to know this stuff?

LLMs make learning new material easier than ever. I use them a lot and I am learning new things at an insane pace in different domains. The maximalists and skeptics both are confusing the debate by setting up this straw man that people will be delegating to LLMs blindly. The idea that someone clueless about OAuth should develop an OAuth lib with LLM support without learning a lot about the topic is... Just wrong. Don…

I think what’s missing here is you should start by reading the RFCs. RFCs tend to be pretty succinct so I’m not really sure what a summarization is buying you there except leaving out important details.

(One thing that might be useful is use the LLM as a search engine to find the relevant RFCs since sometimes it’s hard to find all of the applicable ones if you don’t know the names of them already.)

I really can’t stress this enough: read the RFCs from end to end. Then read through the code of some reference implementations. Draw a sequence diagram. Don’t have the LLM generate one for you, the point is to internalize the design you’re trying to implement against.

By this time you should start spotting bugs or discrepancies between the specs and implementations in the wild. That’s a good sign. It means you’re learning

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