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FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

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Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#121

Post by genocidicbunny »

WalterBright wrote: post #118
genocidicbunny wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily. For example, if there is custom hardware used for communications with other systems, such as radar for example, there might be specific timing and latency requirements that could be difficult to meet under emulation. The most recent Dolphin Emulator post referenced a bug they had where memory cards were written to too quickly under the emulator (and even on actual hardware if you had memory cards tha…

Back when I was designing electronic circuits, the rule was to design for minimum speed, but faster speed should not cause a failure. The rationale was that newer parts were usually faster, and the older parts disappeared. Of course, nothing can prevent poorly designed code and hardware.

The speed thing was just an example that easily came to mind. I can imagine there are other kinds of analog vs digital interactions that might be occurring that may not be easily replicated under emulation. Especially with a system that grew somewhat organically over the last half-century.

Emulation is likely possible, probably for many of the systems involved, but this is not a field where bugs, especially ones introduced due to emulation, would be easily acceptable.

> Of course, nothing can prevent poorly designed code and hardware.

Agreed, but the reality is that here, trying to fix things and ending up breaking them can and probably will kill people.

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#122

Post by bilekas »

nradov wrote: post #62
latexr wrote: post #7

> This is the most important infrastructure project that we’ve had in this country for decades. Everyone agrees — this is non-partisan. Everyone knows we have to do it. Considering the current political climate and rampant government cuts to important services, I very much doubt “everyone agrees” and that this is the best time to be planning such an important transition.

There's nothing to be gained by waiting. It's not like the transition will be easier or safer a year from now.

I don't know why you're being downvoted, I fully agree personally, my only concern at least would be that once the transition project gets started, if the wrong "loudest" vessels in government need to make some noise about overspending to distract from other things, maybe this project might be used as a scape goat.

I can see it already actually : "The FAA was working fine and yet they want these X billions to have shiny new silicon valley machines, paid to big tech by the tax payers"

As horrible as that sounds, I don't think many people would say that it couldn't happen.

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#123

Post by cesaref »

ptero wrote: post #95
buildsjets wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What non-pilot techies fail to comprehend is that the entire ATC system is designed to operate in a no-communication failure mode. This includes features such as the paper strips, mandatory holding points, timed approaches, clearance void times, etc. It is all designed so if you have a complete communication failure in IFR conditions you can land without hitting anyone else. Any fancy new system of, for example an in…

There is definitely value in stability and the US system worked well for a long time, but it is not the only way for a safe ATC. So OK, if you want to do development in this space, do learn about the US setup from a retired old fart who worked with paper strips and thinks the system should stay like this forever. But also learn about systems in Europe, Japan and other places; and realize that ATC can move away from t…

I was involved in writing ATC software in the 90s for a European country (the FATMI system for Finland), and they were definitely using paper strips at the time, and I believe the design did not change this. I wasn't involved in the flight strip printing though, I was working on SIDs and STARs, airspace sectorisation, that sort of thing.

It would be interesting to know how things have changed since then, as obviously nearly 30 years has passed since that system would have been commissioned!

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#124

Post by windward »

Retric wrote: post #93
wtallis wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, we know that floppy disks and drives will wear out, and they have few if any sources for new repair parts. So the fact that the system is still more or less working today doesn't mean it isn't doomed and needs to be replaced before experiencing a catastrophic unrecoverable failure.

Sure, but the timeline before it’s a significant issue easily extends another 20 years.

The article says it will take (at least) 4 years just to roll it out. 20 years isn't much... legroom.

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#125

Post by PaulRobinson »

evanjrowley wrote: post #75

If it works, then don't change it. I would trust a floppy-powered Windows 95 system over the horror show that passes for common operating systems in 2025. What will they think of next? Adding AI to the ATC system?

I read some years ago - IIRC the letters pages of BYTE, which dates it - about a critical factory control system in a company somewhere running on an IBM XT. The MFM drive had started to show some errors, so they got in touch with IBM, who being IBM, did not have any drives in stock (they'd stopped making them 15 years previously), but could retool a manufacturing line and make some. They offered to do it for $250k/drive. The company paid up.

That was cheaper at that time, than modernising that system. But it's clearly not long-term scalable.

I've heard of S/360s in KTLO mode in basements keeping banks running. Teams of people slowly crafting COBOL to get new features in at a cost of thousand of dollars a day each, and it "still works". But from a risk point of view, this is also ridiculous.

Safety critical systems have different economics. Yes, you can keep the floppy systems going, but the cost of keeping them going is rising exponentially each year, and at some point a failure will cost one or more airliners full of civilians and the blame will be put on not having a reasonable upgrade policy.

Sometimes you have to fix things before they stop working, or the cost is not just eyewateringly expensive in terms of dollars, but of human lives too.

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#126

Post by [deleted] »

bilekas wrote: post #122
nradov wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing to be gained by waiting. It's not like the transition will be easier or safer a year from now.

I don't know why you're being downvoted, I fully agree personally, my only concern at least would be that once the transition project gets started, if the wrong "loudest" vessels in government need to make some noise about overspending to distract from other things, maybe this project might be used as a scape goat. I can see it already actually : "The FAA was working fine and yet they want these X billions to have sh…

[deleted]

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#127

Post by azernik »

latexr wrote: post #7

> This is the most important infrastructure project that we’ve had in this country for decades. Everyone agrees — this is non-partisan. Everyone knows we have to do it. Considering the current political climate and rampant government cuts to important services, I very much doubt “everyone agrees” and that this is the best time to be planning such an important transition.

"Everyone agrees - this is non-partisan" is itself a piece of rhetoric designed to create that reality in a situation where it's in doubt. If everyone actually agreed you wouldn't need to emphasize it.

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#128

Post by bmacho »

RandomBacon wrote: post #44
jeffreygoesto wrote: post #6

The latest "Last Week Tonight" episode on Air Traffic Controllers is quite interesting. Learned about the floppy discs there.

> floppy discs disc - optical disk - not optical Eg.: floppy disks and DVD discs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spelling_of_disc

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#129

Post by UltraSane »

WalterBright wrote: post #114
scott_w wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it works, then don't change it. As the article points out: the hardware is at risk of physically failing and it’s getting harder to replace like for like. That’s the reason for looking at an upgrade. Hell, even turning the machines off to replace them is a challenge since some systems need to run 24/7!

If the machine is that old, couldn't an emulator be used to migrate to modern hardware?

If it uses any analog hardware it makes emulation much harder.

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#130

Post by trinix912 »

XorNot wrote: post #111
userbinator wrote: post #105

Aside from that, the upgrades to this critical infrastructure should be resistant to hacking and other vulnerabilities They should realise that, unlike e.g. USB drives or SSDs or even HDDs[1], floppy disks are dumb raw media and cannot contain any "hidden" behaviour, and the failure modes are well-known. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23735424

CD and DVD can fill this role though. It's a damn shame optical media progress cranked down like it did.

Wouldn't it be quite wasteful to constantly have to burn CDs for that?
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