Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

aruarian.dance

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 302 posts

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#121

Post by lozenge »

cmcaleer wrote: post #25
charcircuit wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That article doesn't say they are. >It will continue to accept national IC cards such as Suica and Icoca

I hope it lasts, but I'm seeing gates which have QR code readers, IC card readers,and contactless payment readers, which is obviously unsustainable. One or more of these will have to give eventually, and given Japan's tolerance for QR code payments (PayPay is massive) and foreigners' familiarity with contactless it seems like IC is the most likely one to go. I'd be sad if they do go or get relegated to some app, I lo…

I thought contactless is considered too slow? The exit gates are often open and only close when somebody attempts to pass without their IC card/insufficient balance on the IC card, how does this work with contactless?

I feel like they could combine the IC and contactless reader into one bit of hardware with some engineering.

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#122

Post by jddj »

lxgr wrote: post #94
Reason077 wrote: post #66

> “The London Underground gates don't work nearly as quick with Google Pay or any of my other contactless cards - what gives?” They used to (and still do?) work faster with the Oyster fare card. Virtually instant. But paying with EMV cards/devices does add a noticable transaction latency before the gate opens. A few hundred milliseconds, I’d say.

That's because for EMV, they need to run asymmetric card authentication algorithms, which unfortunately exclusively use RSA. That's just not very fast to do on the type of microcontroller common in these cards. EMV also uses faster symmetric cryptography between the card and the issuer, but the latter is not in the picture in a transit gate transaction – too much latency – so asymmetric cryptography it is. That's als…

Is nfc via google/apple wallet faster then?

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#123

Post by lazide »

AshamedCaptain wrote: post #120
lazide wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And where would you put it? Anywhere you can think of would just be another (usually narrower) bottleneck. In most stations, every available inch of width is used for these ‘gates’, and people move at a walking pace through them except for when people screw up. It’s a remarkably effective system.

See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44014412 to merge discussions.

It doesn’t work in high traffic areas, because the tap areas become impossible to get to if people actually use them - same bottle neck problem.

On busses they are de-facto soft gates, assuming the bus driver yells at you if you don’t use it - which often they do.

And why would they give up that sweet sweet rush hour revenue?

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#124

Post by lxgr »

AshamedCaptain wrote: post #115
lxgr wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would removing the gate improve latency in a scenario where every passenger still has to tap their card at some reader? Sure, you could spread the readers out a bit better across the platform etc., but that significantly weakens the "impossible to accidentally evade the fare" UX, as it still allows people to forget to tap when rushing for a train.

Many cities already have this. Most street trams have already this. Even London has no gates for the non-central stations. I tap either when I'm waiting for the tram, or when I'm literally already inside it. Even with only one validator and at rush hour, there's no queue. If you already live in an area where there are no gates, would you make the argument that "I need gates so that I don't forget to tap"? Put yoursel…

Different transit systems have different user experience, yes.

> would you make the argument that "I need gates so that I don't forget to tap"? Put yourself in my shoes: you would laugh at the idea.

Yes, I'm making that argument. I've lived in places that don't have transit gates for the majority of my life, and I absolutely forgot buying a ticket a few times (since I usually have a monthly pass).

Being reminded about a monthly pass having run out by the gate, automatically charging for a single ride (if I have enough balance) so I can solve the problem later, is great UX.

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#125

Post by delfinom »

aikinai wrote: post #88

The iOS and Android part was hard to follow, so I'm not sure if the article is wrong or just unclear. All iPhones since iPhone 7 support FeliCa regardless of the phone region. This is incredibly convenient for visitors to Japan. On the other hand, Android phones only support it if they are Japan-region phones.

Yes that is correct.

Patents hold it back on Android. Apple just got themselves a licensing deal that apparently lets them just have it on all phones.

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#126

Post by delfinom »

mrb wrote: post #108

"what makes Japan's transit card system (IC cards) so unique compared to the West" Actually other western transit system cards are similar to Japan's. For example in Paris the transit passes (Navigo cards) are stored-value systems and hold a record of the last few scans (three I think). You can also read them with any NFC smartphone and see what's stored inside. The tap at the entrance of a transit vehicle is near in…

Yea but the Japanese IC card system has complete interop between all transit systems run by completely different private companies. So you can hop on a train from one city to another and then hop on a bus in that new city on the other side of the country all using the same card.

And a good chunk of vending machines in Japan accept the IC card. Sometimes even food shops a step above vending machines.

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#127

Post by em500 »

lxgr wrote: post #91
tonyhart7 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they want to replace that for cutting cost, this system is great when in large cities but in rural areas the speed,cost etc is excessive so there's that, I mean if we can optimize QR code system. the winner obviously would be QR because no need to have an dedicated hardware for this Yes, IC card would be faster but at what point the difference is matters???

A perfectly aligned QR code, displayed on a bright mobile phone display, can work acceptably fast. Practically, many people however only start thinking about possibly needing to open some app to display it while they’re already blocking everybody else’s way at the transit gate… The biggest practical benefit of IC cards is that they are by nature always “armed”, unlike QR codes in apps, and are readable from both side…

> Practically, many people however only start thinking about possibly needing to open some app to display it while they’re already blocking everybody else’s way at the transit gate…

This really comes down to adoption. In China, where QR is ubiquitous, almost everyone has the QR ready to scan well before they reach the scanner.

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#128

Post by lxgr »

jddj wrote: post #122
lxgr wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because for EMV, they need to run asymmetric card authentication algorithms, which unfortunately exclusively use RSA. That's just not very fast to do on the type of microcontroller common in these cards. EMV also uses faster symmetric cryptography between the card and the issuer, but the latter is not in the picture in a transit gate transaction – too much latency – so asymmetric cryptography it is. That's als…

Is nfc via google/apple wallet faster then?

Apple Pay uses hardware secure elements, so the same limitations largely apply.

Google Pay emulates the card on the application processor, so theoretically it could be faster, but I wouldn't be surprised if anything won in terms of more performant RSA cryptography is lost to higher command processing latency between the NFC interface and application processor.

It would be interesting for somebody to do a latency comparison between Apple Pay, Google Pay, and a physical card!

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#129

Post by ynx »

aikinai wrote: post #88

The iOS and Android part was hard to follow, so I'm not sure if the article is wrong or just unclear. All iPhones since iPhone 7 support FeliCa regardless of the phone region. This is incredibly convenient for visitors to Japan. On the other hand, Android phones only support it if they are Japan-region phones.

All iPhones worldwide since iPhone 8, Japanese iPhones starting from iPhone 7.

Source: I had an iPhone 7, and was friends with one of the engineers who added FeliCa support to the secure enclave. The Japanese 7 was a one-off until the 8 made it ubiquitous.

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#130

Post by delfinom »

aecsocket wrote: post #116
socalgal2 wrote: post #68

I think I must be mis-understanding something > Since there's no point in generating keys for a device which will not be used in Japan, non-Japan SKUs don't have Osaifu-Keitai functionality. AFAIK, all iPhones from all regions since like iPhone 10 (internet says iPhone 7) support Osaifu-Kaitai unless I don't understand what that means. My USA iPhones works everywhere Suika, Pasmo, Icoca, etc work. Every station, bus,…

Author here, this is my fault for not proof reading this part properly! The part about non-Japan SKUs is generally true for Android phone manufacturers, but Apple eats the cost and gives all phones Osaifi-Keitai. You do not need to root an iPhone to get this functionality, even on a non-Japan unit. I will write a correction for this section to clear up the confusion.

AFAI, many Android phones have Osaifu-Kaitai support outside of the US just sitting there. I think if there is a key generation fee, it's at setup time of a wallet and not just physical phone's existence.

I rooted my US model Pixel 9 Pro on my Japan trip last year to enable it. :D Literally a boolean in a config file.

https://github.com/kormax/osaifu-keitai-google-pixel

(The author's write up has more theories on why Google blocks it on non-Japan SKUs)

Post reply on HN