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Apple App Store guidelines remove ban on encouraging external payments in US

developer.apple.com

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Re: Apple App Store guidelines remove ban on encouraging external payments in US

#121

Post by candiddevmike »

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #56
dartharva wrote: post #5

In the same article: 3.1.1 In-App Purchase: If you want to unlock features or functionality within your app, (by way of example: subscriptions, in-game currencies, game levels, access to premium content, or unlocking a full version), you must use in-app purchase. Apps may not use their own mechanisms to unlock content or functionality, such as license keys, augmented reality markers, QR codes, cryptocurrencies and cr…

> Oof, I don't envy app developers who have to tolerate this bullshit You're confusing developers with publishers. Developers love this shit, one simple API that's built in to the OS and you can support payments worldwide instead of having to integrate with dozens of payment providers all with their own quirky APIs. Now for publishers, who want to maximise their profit margins and who don't have to actually write the…

Apple's API is atrocious to work with, especially integrating it with a server to handle payment success/failure. It's annoyingly naive and kind of the API equivalent of "you're holding it wrong".

Re: Apple App Store guidelines remove ban on encouraging external payments in US

#122

Post by AlexandrB »

caseyy wrote: post #118
crazygringo wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then there are apps you were able to use previously that you will no longer be able to trust. That's the problem -- it's taking away trust. You're not free to continue using Apple's payment system as a consumer.

What do you mean? The app can use Apple's system and its own. If the developers don't want your money on terms fair to you, you don't buy. Some things are relatively easy to refund via Apple, but not all of them. It's nearly impossible to get a refund for in-app purchases, gift cards, balance top-ups, auto-renewing subscriptions, redeemed digital goods, and so on. Coming from the EU, if I paid for these things direct…

This is a good point. If an app does me wrong with a non Apple payment processor I can do a chargeback as a last resort. That's not really an option for Apple payment processing because I think it can get your whole Apple account banned.

Re: Apple App Store guidelines remove ban on encouraging external payments in US

#123

Post by Aaargh20318 »

arghwhat wrote: post #54
Aaargh20318 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How times have changed. They really haven't. 'Web apps' are terrible, both from an end-user and developer perspective. They are a bloated, overcomplicated mess.

Bloated and overcomplicated are design issues, not technology issues. Plenty of native apps are bloated and overcomplicated. Making good apps is hard.

> Bloated and overcomplicated are design issues, not technology issues.

No, it's very much a technology issue. The overhead just for shipping an entire webbrowser with your app is insane. Building a decent UI in HTML/CSS which were never designed for that purpose, is an absolute disaster. HTML and CSS are for formatting text documents, not for designing user interfaces. There is a reason that there is a framework-of-the-week for webapps.

So now you have this massive webbrowser footprint, with the framework-of-the-week on top and then you have to write your app on top of this abomination in one of the most terrible languages ever invented.

The whole 'webapp' thing exists solely on the false promise of cost savings. Every kid who made a webpage for their aunt's Etsy business calls themselves a 'web designer', which has resulted in a race to the bottom. Web designer are a dime a dozen (sure, a good one may cost a pretty penny, but that's not what management sees). Now you can hire that cheap 'web designer' and they can build apps too, since that's just web tech, right? And since it all works cross-platform, you only need to build it once. What a cost savings!

They will even get an initial version out the door quickly. Look, everything worked out as expected. The problem is that it's quicksand. Your app grows and it gets harder and harder to fix issues and add features, as it's all build on shaky foundations. The more you move, the more difficult it becomes. Soon, you find yourself writing platform-specific code as the cross-platform promise doesn't hold for anything but the simplest functionality. Before you know it, you have this bloated, unmaintainable mess.

At the end of the day, it's easier and cheaper to just develop 2 native apps for iOS/Android than it is to build a 'webapp'. You can use nice, modern programming languages with very few footguns (Swift/Kotlin), good tooling, a UI toolkit designed to actually build UIs with, a set of well designed platform APIs. The whole cross-platform web-app thing sounds nice in theory, but it never delivers on its promises.

Re: Apple App Store guidelines remove ban on encouraging external payments in US

#124

Post by jasonlotito »

coldcode wrote: post #69

At the risk of not piling on to the Apple dislike here, if you use a non-Apple payment system, and you have an issue, you now need to go to the specific company and payment system, you can no longer demand your money back by dealing with a single company. I presume even more scam apps will take your money and ignore your complaints; imagine trying to sue a company in some foreign country to try to get your money back…

> you now need to go to the specific company and payment system,

My credit card company. In fact, this is better because as a consumer, if I get scammed, I only need to deal with my CC company, and when I get my money back, I don't have to worry about Apple closing my account in retaliation.

> When Apple controlled the payment system,

I was beholden to Apple's whims and limitations. If I didn't like Apple's outcome, going to my credit card company was still an option. However, initiating a charge back could result in something happening to my account.

> imagine trying to sue a company in some foreign country to try to get your money back if they stole it

One phone call with my CC company (I don't even know if you still need to do the phone call anymore).

Oh, but... to be fair, I can't go to Apple's subscription page and cancel it there. So, there is that one thing.

Re: Apple App Store guidelines remove ban on encouraging external payments in US

#125

Post by caseyy »

AlexandrB wrote: post #122
caseyy wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean? The app can use Apple's system and its own. If the developers don't want your money on terms fair to you, you don't buy. Some things are relatively easy to refund via Apple, but not all of them. It's nearly impossible to get a refund for in-app purchases, gift cards, balance top-ups, auto-renewing subscriptions, redeemed digital goods, and so on. Coming from the EU, if I paid for these things direct…

This is a good point. If an app does me wrong with a non Apple payment processor I can do a chargeback as a last resort. That's not really an option for Apple payment processing because I think it can get your whole Apple account banned.

That is also true. There is a very significant disincentive to charge back against sellers protected by Apple, Microsoft, Google, Amazon, PayPal, Stripe, and other similar payment gateways. The consumer protections are, therefore, eroded.

Re: Apple App Store guidelines remove ban on encouraging external payments in US

#126

Post by perihelions »

Related threads,

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43852145 ("Apple violated antitrust ruling, judge finds (wsj.com)" — 585 comments)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43856795 ("Judge rules Apple executive lied under oath, makes criminal contempt referral (thebignewsletter.com)" — 340 comments)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43859814 ("A senior Apple exec could be jailed in Epic case (9to5mac.com)" — 94 comments)

Re: Apple App Store guidelines remove ban on encouraging external payments in US

#127

Post by Aaargh20318 »

troupo wrote: post #81
Aaargh20318 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Oof, I don't envy app developers who have to tolerate this bullshit You're confusing developers with publishers. Developers love this shit, one simple API that's built in to the OS and you can support payments worldwide instead of having to integrate with dozens of payment providers all with their own quirky APIs. Now for publishers, who want to maximise their profit margins and who don't have to actually write the…

> Now for publishers, As if there are no developers who are also publishers.

If you're an indie developer who self-publishes, do you want to spend your time working on your app or on payment platform integrations?

Especially the smaller self-publishing developers won't benefit from this at all. It's just the large publishers like Epic who can afford the developer resources to build their own payment systems who have something to gain here.

Apple’s rules leveled the playing field. All this ruling does is give a competitive advantage to the big fish.

Re: Apple App Store guidelines remove ban on encouraging external payments in US

#128

Post by bryant »

mlrtime wrote: post #75
coldcode wrote: post #69

At the risk of not piling on to the Apple dislike here, if you use a non-Apple payment system, and you have an issue, you now need to go to the specific company and payment system, you can no longer demand your money back by dealing with a single company. I presume even more scam apps will take your money and ignore your complaints; imagine trying to sue a company in some foreign country to try to get your money back…

Not 100% true, if it's digital you always have your Credit Card company. This is many times easier dealing with Apple or anyone else.

In fact, with apple providing this service, it's objectively worse — if apple declines to refund you and you charge back via card, apple (and Google etc) will just ban your account.

Removing apple and google from the payment chain mitigates this risk.

Re: Apple App Store guidelines remove ban on encouraging external payments in US

#129

Post by AlexandrB »

JustExAWS wrote: post #88
protimewaster wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the issue is not about what it's worth, but what they should be allowed to charge for. To me, the argument about "what it's worth" is fundamentally wrong. As an extreme example, if some company found a way to charge me $100 every day or my head would explode, that obviously is worth $100 to most of us. However, I'm currently not having to pay any company to prevent my head from exploding, so maybe that's just…

Name one platform or even retail physical goods store that has less than a 15% markup from the wholesale price?

Why is a middleman required at all? Epic seems happy to process their own payments - they don't need a "platform" to do it for them.

Re: Apple App Store guidelines remove ban on encouraging external payments in US

#130

Post by daveidol »

crazygringo wrote: post #104
UncleMeat wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are free to only use apps that use apple payments if you are concerned about this.

But then there are apps you were able to use previously that you will no longer be able to trust. That's the problem -- it's taking away trust. You're not free to continue using Apple's payment system as a consumer.

I’m pretty sure this ruling just lets developers add an external payment option (and charge less for it). Apple’s IAP is still a requirement, so you’ll still have that option if it’s worth the 30% premium to you (it definitely is not for me).
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