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East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

maxhertzberg.co.uk

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Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#121

Post by [deleted] »

roenxi wrote: post #93
bertylicious wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You forgot to add a source for your claim that protestors called for the death of Rowling.

That isn't the part of the argument that needs a source - pretty much everyone who is anyone in the public sphere seems to have death threats made against them and threats of extreme violence are actually pretty common at protests. Guillotines at protests are a reasonably common fixture for example [0]. That is the reason the standard needs to be someone actually doing something before the police get involved - peopl…

[deleted]

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#122

Post by xico »

okeuro49 wrote: post #25

In the UK there is "social media intelligence", where AI systems scan the firehose of messages as they appear. [1] So people have been arrested for posting something online, even if nobody appears to have seen it, and they delete it shortly after. The policing is selective, depending on political view. For example, there were recently people with placards in London calling for the death of JK Rowling, which is de fac…

This case sounds crazy, I cannot even imagine loosing a child and how anybody could expect someone to keep sane in those conditions.

Beyond this, there is a very clear difference between inciting hatred towards a group of people based on race, religion, nationality, origin, etc, and towards a single individual without those aggravations. The law is quite clear about this distinction in various countries (Public Order Act in the UK for instance), and the penalties are rightfully much stronger when one would try to instil hatred towards a racial (or other) group.

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#123

Post by soco »

e40 wrote: post #53
anovikov wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Communism was seen by countries we call "Communist" (GDR, Soviet Union, Red China in Mao era, and the like), as something potentially possible in some distant future, it was their endgame (some claim, only notionally so, with no actual plan of getting there, but it doesn't matter really). What they had in reality, they called "Socialism". Socialism is the "form of industrialised society where private ownership…

The above comment chain is what is wrong with us. We talk about labels more than we talk about issues. Labels are a distraction. If you have a conversation about real things I find we agree nore than we disagree. But disagreement is what is fomented by our oppressors, because it distracts us from fighting them.

Nevertheless, words (let's not call them labels, maybe terms) are what allows us to communicate ideas. While yes communicating about real things is the real deal, having a common understanding of words, language and concepts, is what allows everybody to have discussions. Labels are just shortcuts which may or may not be understood the same way by the participants, so such clarifications are always necessary at the beginning.

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#124

Post by rdtsc »

Helmut10001 wrote: post #12
begueradj wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some European countries, if you apply to rent an apartment, the landlord can see you failed to pay 1 month rent several years ago. That's just a tiny example. Is this control and surveillance or ... democracy and freedom ?

I have a tenant who has been living in my garden house for two years without paying rent. It is almost impossible to solve this situation. I am not even allowed to turn off the water or electricity. There are always two sides to every coin.

That’s just crazy. Were they ever a paying tenant and stopped paying. or just random stranger who broke in and decided they now lived there?

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#125

Post by cruzcampo »

vkou wrote: post #106
cruzcampo wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

January 6 was an attempted coup de etat and high treason, not a protest. It was not persecuted nearly enough - participants would've deserved the death penalty.

The part of it that took place at the rally was a protest. A lot of people attended it, and went home. The fraction of them that went on to break into the capitol was a failed coup.

I see it as a modern day equivalent to Mussolini's March on Rome.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_on_Rome

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#126

Post by roenxi »

n4r9 wrote: post #116
roenxi wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't the part of the argument that needs a source - pretty much everyone who is anyone in the public sphere seems to have death threats made against them and threats of extreme violence are actually pretty common at protests. Guillotines at protests are a reasonably common fixture for example [0]. That is the reason the standard needs to be someone actually doing something before the police get involved - peopl…

Maybe so, but it's still important to callenge okeuro49's claims. Extremist takes like that give off an air of believability despite being unsubstantiated. Relying solely on the common sense of the readership leads to situations where extremist views simply drown out the rest. It should not be seen as acceptable to present a wilfully distorted view of the facts.

JK Rowling is famous, wealthy, a public figure and female. I guarantee you she has received death threats and the police have shrugged it off as not a credible problem.

Whether they are public or not is more of an academic detail, but given the level of hostility aimed at her it is a pretty safe bet that someone has somewhere whether or not it was reported on the internet. If someone wants to die on the hill of every claim being cited then fair enough, at least it is a principled hill. But this is like asking for a cite that US political debate got heated. Rowling has genuine anti-fans out there, I've seen totally spontaneous wild hate sessions break out against her in my wanderings through the internet. It'll have spilled out into real-world protest somewhere.

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#127

Post by foldr »

EnPissant wrote: post #119
input_sh wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't seen a single example of someone calling for death of JK Rowling specifically in any of those? The only references to her I see is a sign saying "go shit on a pile of Harry Potter books" and people chanting "fuck JK Rowling".

It's an example of police ignoring death threats. It references Harry Potter, and JK Rowling is the most common target of the "TERF" epithet. In any case, it supports the claim that the UK police selectively enforce speech laws.

The original post said that people had placards “calling for the death of JK Rowling”. It may be that the poster’s overall point does not rely on this specific factual claim. But don’t try to muddy the waters around this: it’s a straightforward factual claim and people are right to ask if it can be sourced. So far it has not been.

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#128

Post by foldr »

roenxi wrote: post #126
n4r9 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe so, but it's still important to callenge okeuro49's claims. Extremist takes like that give off an air of believability despite being unsubstantiated. Relying solely on the common sense of the readership leads to situations where extremist views simply drown out the rest. It should not be seen as acceptable to present a wilfully distorted view of the facts.

JK Rowling is famous, wealthy, a public figure and female. I guarantee you she has received death threats and the police have shrugged it off as not a credible problem. Whether they are public or not is more of an academic detail, but given the level of hostility aimed at her it is a pretty safe bet that someone has somewhere whether or not it was reported on the internet. If someone wants to die on the hill of every…

The original claim was that people were carrying placards at a recent protest in London calling for the death of JK Rowling. It’s not obvious that this has in fact happened, and it’s reasonable to ask for evidence of it.

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#129

Post by tpm »

afterburner wrote: post #19
sien wrote: post #4

It's remarkable how quickly Communism collapsed in Eastern Europe the moment Soviet support went. Despite decades of intense propaganda, killings of people in uprisings and the methods of Stasi as described in the article. Even with all that effort most people didn't believe in the regime. So it's hard to say whether the Stasi's tactics worked. Only people in the regimes like Ceausescu and Honecker actually thought p…

Soviet support? More like Soviet control.

And also intimidation and threats. All of the the regimes collapsed swiftly once Gorbachev declared there will be no Soviet military response, like there was in 1956 and 1968. One wonders what would have happened if Poland in 1981 didn't feel like the Soviets will repeat that; there are some reasons to believe they would not.

Re: East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)

#130

Post by roenxi »

foldr wrote: post #128
roenxi wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

JK Rowling is famous, wealthy, a public figure and female. I guarantee you she has received death threats and the police have shrugged it off as not a credible problem. Whether they are public or not is more of an academic detail, but given the level of hostility aimed at her it is a pretty safe bet that someone has somewhere whether or not it was reported on the internet. If someone wants to die on the hill of every…

The original claim was that people were carrying placards at a recent protest in London calling for the death of JK Rowling. It’s not obvious that this has in fact happened, and it’s reasonable to ask for evidence of it.

Let me google that for you: https://celebrity.nine.com.au/latest/jk-rowling-slams-transg...

I'm just saying, I didn't even check before this comment. And who knew? bunch of death threats targeting Rowling with activists trying to make sure everyone can find her in meatspace in case the threat makes her quieten down. "Did she receive death threats" is really not the part of this to try and question. And if you want to make a point about did someone do it while at a protest - I mean yeah. Yeah they did. Maybe nobody bothered to record it, because that sort of thing is routine and boring.

If someone wants to attack the police response part that I have no idea about. Maybe they did respond and it was exemplary - that is the sort of thing that does need a source. But the death threats part is just another year as a public figure. There are a lot of death threats out there. And it'd spill over to placards.

EDIT And it turned out to be remarkably easy to find a citation, note the "decapitate TERFs" link 2 comments up. As expected. It's easy to tune out because in practice calling for the death of someone at a protest is in practice a pretty minor thing to do. Which TERFs do they want to decapitate if not Rowling? Is there fine print on the back of the sign that exempts her? Its Sky News so I I'll admit that is possible.

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