On loyalty to your employer (2018) • Hacker News Board

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#121

Post by RankingMember » Thu, Apr 24, 2025, 2:22 PM UTC

esperent wrote: post #105

Retric wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea of retirement is literally thousands of years old at this point. Hell the Roman Empire even had the idea of pensions though it wasn’t that common at the time. Aging inherently means being unable to be an independent productive member of society at some point. (Ed: well past what we consider retirement age.) Historically in agrarian societies few people reached this point so it wasn’t generally a significant…

> Historically in agrarian societies few people reached this point so it wasn’t generally a significant burden to support them This isn't true. https://www.campop.geog.cam.ac.uk/blog/2024/08/15/three-scor... > ...in England, average life expectancy at birth varied between 35 and 40 years in the centuries between 1600 and 1800. It is a common misconception that, when life expectancy was so low, there must have been ve…

Yep, infant mortality skews the average and has often led to this kind of misconception

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#122

Post by curiousllama » Thu, Apr 24, 2025, 2:22 PM UTC

Never confuse loyalty to a person with loyalty to an employer.

I have found loyalty to managers - when reciprocated - is the most valuable currency I have. It's led to both rewarding experiences & safety from the exact type of organizational change that makes loyalty to an employer useless.

Loyalty is for people & ideas, never organizations.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#123

Post by hirvi74 » Thu, Apr 24, 2025, 2:22 PM UTC

vintagedave wrote: post #112

> Do you treat your people well? > Glassdoor is your friend. I have read, here on HN, that Glassdoor is not accurate. How do you realistically tell from outside if a company does treat their people well, or has a difficult culture? I've heard people mention churn, but people stick around even in those environments (especially for financial reasons) and churn is not always an indicator.

There is also a bias on Glassdoor. I would imagine, much like product reviews, people are more likely to go out of their way to leave a negative review than a positive review of an employer.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#124

Post by stetrain » Thu, Apr 24, 2025, 2:25 PM UTC

lr4444lr wrote: post #85

CharlieDigital wrote: post #4

> “When I’m on my deathbed, I won’t look back at my life and wish I had worked harder. I’ll look back and wish I spent more time with the people I loved.” I saw a Reddit thread the other day on r/startups or r/entrepreneur where the OP was talking about how they'll be working until the day he or she dies. I immediately wondered if this individual had a family, friends. Had this person already seen the world and its m…

The loss of work for its centering, routine, mental challenges, socialization across the generations, and sense of accomplishment is harmful to mental and even physical health. Sure, a construction worker can't be climbing the rafters at 80 years old, but this idea that we just transition to leisure and getting together with friends at a certain point is both fairly novel and of dubious value.

There are options other than working to the exclusion of other fulfillment right up until a specific age cutoff and then having zero work.

Honestly saving all of that until retirement is not a great idea when you look at how many people die in their 60s and 70s and that if you have children and raise a family that's going to happen well before retirement as well.

You can also find routine, mental challenges, and socialization across the generations without "working" in the traditional sense of a full time job for an employer or your own business.

There are lots of ways to balance these things out, and to find that balance along the way instead of hoping you'll find it in some theoretical future retirement.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#125

Post by dasil003 » Thu, Apr 24, 2025, 2:26 PM UTC

shinycode wrote: post #27

agubelu wrote: post #20

I dislike the word "loyalty" when talking about employment. Loyalty is for your spouse, friends and family. Your relationship with your employer is a contractual one. When it comes to my job, I believe in doing your best possible work, being professional and acting in good faith. I expect to be paid fairly and treated with respect. If this relationship is mutually beneficial, it can go on for a long while. But it's i…

100% agree, loyalty goes both ways and we rarely see loyal employers (massive layoffs including hi-profile employee who dedicated their life to the company)

Loyalty to a corporation is misplaced because it can only be as loyal as its agents are, and those are numerous and constantly shifting.

I think its fine to be loyal to individuals that have earned it, but don’t make the mistake of thinking your boss can guarantee your employment in all circumstances, that’s not how the corporate world works.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#126

Post by StableAlkyne » Thu, Apr 24, 2025, 2:26 PM UTC

CharlieDigital wrote: post #4

> “When I’m on my deathbed, I won’t look back at my life and wish I had worked harder. I’ll look back and wish I spent more time with the people I loved.” I saw a Reddit thread the other day on r/startups or r/entrepreneur where the OP was talking about how they'll be working until the day he or she dies. I immediately wondered if this individual had a family, friends. Had this person already seen the world and its m…

I don't think it's that crazy in certain careers; I've seen a similar sentiment in academics.

Back in grad school, we had several professors emeriti who were teaching a class or two, or collaborating with a lab, because they just enjoyed it.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#127

Post by BriggyDwiggs42 » Thu, Apr 24, 2025, 2:26 PM UTC

lr4444lr wrote: post #85

CharlieDigital wrote: post #4

> “When I’m on my deathbed, I won’t look back at my life and wish I had worked harder. I’ll look back and wish I spent more time with the people I loved.” I saw a Reddit thread the other day on r/startups or r/entrepreneur where the OP was talking about how they'll be working until the day he or she dies. I immediately wondered if this individual had a family, friends. Had this person already seen the world and its m…

The loss of work for its centering, routine, mental challenges, socialization across the generations, and sense of accomplishment is harmful to mental and even physical health. Sure, a construction worker can't be climbing the rafters at 80 years old, but this idea that we just transition to leisure and getting together with friends at a certain point is both fairly novel and of dubious value.

You can work, can do all that, without big w Work as the only format. Surely if society can compel people into work as a means to accomplish those positive ends you mentioned, it can be made in a way that still pushes towards those positive ends without many of the drawbacks our current system comes along with.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#128

Post by chii » Thu, Apr 24, 2025, 2:27 PM UTC

PhilipRoman wrote: post #24

PeterStuer wrote: post #5

Systemically, there is a bias to find/retain employees that overcommit, and a bias for employers that will undercommit to the "relationship". Rationally you can agree it is a purely transactional state. Working hours for compensation. Emotionally in tech many love the work itself, or the nerdy glamour of the industry, or the inherent intelectual bravadory and oneupmanship, and so are ripe for exploitation. HR will dr…

Eh, I'm okay with doing more than required, as long as the employer also does so on their part.

butif the employer also do their part, then you're not doing more than required - you're doing _exactly_ what is required.

The only way to do more than required is when one party benefits more (e.g., employer gets free overtime, or an employee clocks more hours than they actually did).

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#129

Post by vb7132 » Thu, Apr 24, 2025, 2:27 PM UTC

After working at the same (big tech) company for nine years, I feel like an outlier. My career has had phases of intense hard work and periods of rest. However, my happiness was influenced by many other factors. While working hard and being in the flow can be incredibly gratifying, it can also be stressful. Additionally, the relationships at work play a significant role, more so than the work itself.

In my friend circle, I’ve noticed that the happiest people are those who are pursuing their own interests and achieving moderate success in them. Ultimately, this seems to create a sense of purpose. And I am envious of such people.

Work is also a crucial component of the "work-life" balance dichotomy. If you’re not working enough, you’re likely to feel unhappy.

Re: On loyalty to your employer (2018)

#130

Post by xingped » Thu, Apr 24, 2025, 2:28 PM UTC

Scene_Cast2 wrote: post #113

rckt wrote: post #103

I got it pretty early in my career that loyalty for a company is concept to make you work harder without asking anything in return. And the moment the company shifts focus and you are out of it, then suddenly you understand that this loyalty wasn't kind of a credits account which you've been saving all this time. It's simply nothing. You are on your own and can fuck off. So there's simply no place for loyalty in empl…

Employer? No. But I've seen some very smart coworkers value and reward deep, specialized knowledge that is built through working in the same area (of not just tech but also business application) for many years.

Doesn't really matter how much your coworkers value you when your employer suddenly decides tomorrow that they've decided to change focus for the 5th time this month and it's your department getting cut this time.