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Don't force your kids to do math

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Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#121

Post by bawolff »

jamesy0ung wrote: post #53

As someone who just finished school, I’m trying to figure out how to get genuinely interested in mathematics. I’ve never been particularly strong at it, yet I’m planning to enter a university program that demands a high level of math. The problem is, it’s hard to motivate myself to study math for its own sake. For example, I loved learning programming because it’s hands‑on—I can build something and immediately see th…

> For example, I loved learning programming because it’s hands‑on—I can build something and immediately see the results. In everyday life, though, I rarely need more than basic arithmetic or simple sin/cos/tan trigonometry.

Consider doing something that actually needs it. You like computer programming - consider making a game engine. It might be easier to learn when you can actually see that it is useful.

Keep in mind though that math is a lot of things. People obsess over calculus but that is just one type. Math is just as much the different types of symmetry in wall paper patterns as it is finding the derrivative. Don't be afraid to try different areas. If you dont know where to start, consider picking up "A Concise Introduction to Pure Mathematics" by liebeck which introduces a bunch of different math concepts and see if any feel more interesting to you.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#122

Post by bawolff »

ziofill wrote: post #78
ludicrousdispla wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

University is not a good place for learning mathematics as most of your math instructors there will be very good at math and very bad at teaching people that are not already very good at math.

Sorry, no. Universities are great places to learn math. You’re misrepresenting the genuine passion for teaching that many university instructors have.

Except maybe not calculus. I remember my calc class kind of being terrible because it was a weed out for other majors. Every math class that wasnt required though was great.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#123

Post by procaryote »

jamesy0ung wrote: post #53

As someone who just finished school, I’m trying to figure out how to get genuinely interested in mathematics. I’ve never been particularly strong at it, yet I’m planning to enter a university program that demands a high level of math. The problem is, it’s hard to motivate myself to study math for its own sake. For example, I loved learning programming because it’s hands‑on—I can build something and immediately see th…

If you love programming, there's quite a lot of programming where math is vital. Graphics, optimisation problems, cryptography, neural networks, figuring out if a hash works, projecting if an algorithm will scale...

The tricky bit is often that you need to learn some of the math before you can see how it's useful, but if you need stronger motivation, you might try diving into a slightly math heavy programming problem and learn the math as you go

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#125

Post by alpaca128 »

CommenterPerson wrote: post #37

Compare learning math to learning to bicycle. There is some some sweat and struggle that needs to be put in, before one "gets it". After this it can become enjoyable. I encouraged my daughter with practice exercises from a young age, but tried to avoid making it a drudge. She built up confidence and did well with it. She is also very hands on creative. She decided to study engineering and is working towards her PhD.

Those aren't nearly comparable. Riding a bike is one simple skill and as long as you're not racing that's enough for most people. Meanwhile learning maths is a years-long effort at best. I learned how to ride a bike within an hour by myself when I finally had a good reason to learn it. I can't say the same about maths.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#126

Post by ludicrousdispla »

ziofill wrote: post #78
ludicrousdispla wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

University is not a good place for learning mathematics as most of your math instructors there will be very good at math and very bad at teaching people that are not already very good at math.

Sorry, no. Universities are great places to learn math. You’re misrepresenting the genuine passion for teaching that many university instructors have.

Sorry, no.

For whatever reason, many University programs use high level math classes as a filter to weed out 1st year students from that program. If university instructors had a genuine passion, and ability, for teaching high level math then they wouldn't accept that as an outcome.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#127

Post by fleshmonad »

j45 wrote: post #45

Forcing is kind of hopeless. So is logic, and reasoning. How children learn (they can't rely on a fully formed prefrontal cortex like adults) is very different than how adults learn (no fully developed prefrontal cortex until 25-26), learning about this can help a lot. Learning more about the Reggio Emelia approach might help parents curious about this, it has been quite surprising how much is possible naturally. One…

When I was 8, I went to the library in our town a lot. My parents went there sometime to return their books. At some point I just stayed there when they would go home. First I was in the children/teenager section and soon in the general library, where I would read about programming and computers. I learned C by age of nine.

The "undeveloped PFC" argument is shallow, unspecific and usually just used to infantilize younger people. It may be useful if the child is under 6 years old, but at the time someone is 17 or older, it becomes essentially useless.

My learning process was always, and still is fueled by curiosity.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#128

Post by eastbound »

paganel wrote: post #118
laurent_du wrote: post #102

Very poor take. The author clearly has very limited experience with raising kids. Most kids won't do difficult things if you don't push them. Playing music, learning to spell correctly, doing mathematics, and so on. A very small minority of kids will do all of that easily and for the fun, but you can't rely on it. If you don't push your kid to do their 20 minutes of piano every day, they will half-ass it and will sto…

The world needs less Asian kids being forced to play piano since a very early age and it needs more kids (Asian and not only) that are left to explore the world. Without that exploration the kids won't make the world their world, at best they'd only make it a bad approximation of what we, our (older) generation, best think that that world should be.

Any proof of why it is best?

I prefer to live among educated people, thank you. I prefer my peers to go through forced history lessons, forced math lessons so they don’t tank my government, and biology lessons so they don’t tank the health system. Yes they won’t be able to determine their gender, but that will give me grandkids, thank you very much.

Same goes for piano or sports. Yes we need to pull people upwards, otherwise we’ll all become fat americans.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#129

Post by renerick »

jpc0 wrote: post #117
lazystar wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

its silly. itd be like introducing first year programming students to advanced maps/filters/anonymous function syntax, instead of the easier to understand for loops and if/else statements. math's "no true scottsman" approach to teaching only hurts itself in the long run.

I'm not sure if it would be easier to explain a map / filter to a first year student vs implementing the patten manually using a for loop and if statement... Seems like a pretty easy example to make practically, for map have a collection of things, say balls or black. Pick up each one and do a thing to them, paint them blue for example. For filter do the same except have two different colour balls, if they are yellow…

Explaining loops is independent of the concepts of collections though. It's also more general, since map/filter/reduce use some kind of loops under the hood anyway, the fact that probably shouldn't be ignored in education process. Unless of course you go with pure functional recursive iterator, but good luck explaining that one.

Maps and filters also require understanding of higher order functions and the very idea of passing function around as a value. I would argue that implementing map/filter with a loop and then demonstrating how this pattern is generalized as .map()/.filter() functions is better and more accessible

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#130

Post by gyomu »

lukan wrote: post #103
laurent_du wrote: post #102

Very poor take. The author clearly has very limited experience with raising kids. Most kids won't do difficult things if you don't push them. Playing music, learning to spell correctly, doing mathematics, and so on. A very small minority of kids will do all of that easily and for the fun, but you can't rely on it. If you don't push your kid to do their 20 minutes of piano every day, they will half-ass it and will sto…

Different point of view: do you consider hunting in the wilderness to be difficult? I do, it requires being still in miserable conditions for a long time, being cold, wet, mosquitos, and then usually still no success, but frustration. But to my knowledge, no savage kid is in need of being forced to learn it. "children sense your true passions and naturally want to join in" And that is my experience as well. But if yo…

Kids tend to want to partake of their own initiative in activities that are 1) physical, and 2) that they see adults themselves do.

Hunting in wilderness is a good example; so are sports, cooking, crafts, etc.

But unfortunately not all important activities that kids need to learn to become well adjusted adults in our modern societies fit those 2 criteria.

Point 2) can be hacked to an extent by modeling the behavior yourself - eg kids who see adults read books are more likely to want to read themselves.

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