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Encryption Is Not a Crime

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Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#121

Post by HDThoreaun »

gruez wrote: post #117
kube-system wrote: post #26

This is too many words to convince someone who already doesn’t believe this. Put more simply: the modern internet doesn’t work without encryption, it is a fundamental part of the technology. Without it, anyone could log into any of your accounts, take your money, messages, photos, anything.

>Put more simply: the modern internet doesn’t work without encryption, it is a fundamental part of the technology. Without it, anyone could log into any of your accounts, take your money, messages, photos, anything. I'm pretty pro encryption, but even this is pretty dishonest. Phones (ie. PSTN, not iPhones) aren't "encrypted" by any means, but there's plenty of sensitive information sent over it. Lawyers fax each oth…

1. How often are people saying their bank login on their phone calls?

2. Is there a way for phone call man in the middlers to get that info without wasting a ton of time listening to calls? With internet MITM it is very easy to set up a program that scrapes unencrypted login info.

Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#122

Post by giantg2 »

i5heu wrote: post #34

I do not like these framings of "not a" because it always sounds so suspicious like "we are not a cult". It puts the idea into the world that it could be a crime and maybe that it is the status quo. Much better IMHO is something like "Encryption is a fundamental right.", "Encryption protects everyone.", "Without encryption there is no democracy." and so on. Maybe "Don’t let them take your right to privacy."

I generally agree. My first thought was that if I encrypt your data without your permission, that would be a crime (eg ransomware).

Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#123

Post by marcosdumay »

chupasaurus wrote: post #9
kubb wrote: post #4

There's an abstract argument template that I've noticed floating around. It goes like this: 1. There's a thing T in the world, and that thing has negative outcomes X, Y, Z, and positive outcomes A, B, C. 2. Some people believe that Y and Z are so bad, that they want to partly compromise C to diminish them. 3. However that will never work! And they'll definitely also take B if we let them mess with C. 4. Besides, C is…

My favorite version of it is "Let's ban air because terrorists breathe".

I've usually seen it phrased as "let's ban wheels|cars so bank robbers can't escape!".

But well, even that rebuttal is getting tiresome. It's the same people that keep pushing for banning air again and again. They control all the communication channels, so nobody can ever rebut them in a forum that matters, they control the governments, and they are still not popular enough to make that thing pass. Yet, they keep pushing for it.

I don't think we'll solve this by talking about this. We need to talk about systemic corruption instead. (But then, they control the communication channels...)

Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#124

Post by netfortius »

i5heu wrote: post #34

I do not like these framings of "not a" because it always sounds so suspicious like "we are not a cult". It puts the idea into the world that it could be a crime and maybe that it is the status quo. Much better IMHO is something like "Encryption is a fundamental right.", "Encryption protects everyone.", "Without encryption there is no democracy." and so on. Maybe "Don’t let them take your right to privacy."

The "is a right" hasn't worked in years. I'm a lot of areas. . I rather agree with the more specific and up to date "is not a crime".

Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#125

Post by RegnisGnaw »

ivl wrote: post #37
loftsy wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can make gun fairly easily with what can be accomplished with a CNC machine. It is still illegal.

Where that is illegal they don't go making CNC machines illegal because of that.

They're not making math illegal.

Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#126

Post by kube-system »

gruez wrote: post #117
kube-system wrote: post #26

This is too many words to convince someone who already doesn’t believe this. Put more simply: the modern internet doesn’t work without encryption, it is a fundamental part of the technology. Without it, anyone could log into any of your accounts, take your money, messages, photos, anything.

>Put more simply: the modern internet doesn’t work without encryption, it is a fundamental part of the technology. Without it, anyone could log into any of your accounts, take your money, messages, photos, anything. I'm pretty pro encryption, but even this is pretty dishonest. Phones (ie. PSTN, not iPhones) aren't "encrypted" by any means, but there's plenty of sensitive information sent over it. Lawyers fax each oth…

I’m not saying every layer of the onion is individually encrypted. But there are plenty of layers that are.

There is plenty of encryption used when you send any sort of message from an iPhone, even SMS. You can’t even turn the dang thing on and unlock it without encryption. Then when you send it, it’ll be encrypted by the radio before transmission. Then in transit it may or may not be encrypted at various points.

And POTS is not the internet.

My overall point is that encryption is used all of the time when people use the internet for routine tasks that they expect to work, and would not work in a modern reasonable way without it.

People use these technical implementations details to muddy the water of this conversation and demonize encryption, when the reality is that everyone uses it literally all the time for almost everything.

Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#127

Post by kashunstva »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #58
ziddoap wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You should engage with the arguments the other side makes. The arguments are "Protect the children.", "Catch terrorists.", "Catch criminals.". Those arguments have been engaged with for decades. They are purely emotional arguments. Anyone who still pushes those arguments forth is most likely doing so with ulterior motives and cannot be reasonably "engaged" with.

For what its worth the anti-encryption/anti-privacy laws have caught terrorists in the UK. My company provides data storage for their dragnet and handles various requests and Ive seen first hand 4 different instances where the UK gov watching everyones internet activity led to terrorists being caught.

> anti-encryption/anti-privacy laws have caught terrorists

This is undoubtedly so; but much turns on the trust in government. In this U.S., the president, himself a documented profligate liar, just invited an equally untrustworthy unelected person into the halls of government to vacuum up whatever data he pleased. Maybe trust in the UK government is higher.

Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#128

Post by hilbert42 »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #58
ziddoap wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You should engage with the arguments the other side makes. The arguments are "Protect the children.", "Catch terrorists.", "Catch criminals.". Those arguments have been engaged with for decades. They are purely emotional arguments. Anyone who still pushes those arguments forth is most likely doing so with ulterior motives and cannot be reasonably "engaged" with.

For what its worth the anti-encryption/anti-privacy laws have caught terrorists in the UK. My company provides data storage for their dragnet and handles various requests and Ive seen first hand 4 different instances where the UK gov watching everyones internet activity led to terrorists being caught.

Low hanging fruit. The smart ones likely aren't being caught now.

Moreover, it's only a matter of time until the criminal fraternity all catch up and are on the same wavelength. That's when all but the dumbest know exactly what not to do or say on the net.

The Internet is still comparatively young and like everyone else those who've evil intent are still learning exactly how it works. I'd bet money that it won't be long before a 'bestseller tome' of definitive what-not-to-dos cirulates amongst this mob.

The question is at what level will law enforcement's catch have to fall before it has to turn to other methods.

Re: Encryption Is Not a Crime

#130

Post by procaryote »

wulfstan wrote: post #107
AAAAaccountAAAA wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it is not realistic to except a government to always be "good". Courts are just going to rubber-stamp warrants, like they have done with present-day "lawful interception" warrants. And the keys are inevitably going to leak, if they are used routineously to investigate common crime.

Apple's iOS firmware encryption key hasn't leaked, as far as I am aware. Do you know otherwise? There are already very good solutions for ensuring that key leakages are very difficult to do and limited in effect.

is that very good solution "manage your own keys and don't give a special one to the government"?
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