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Decreased CO2 during breathwork: emergence of altered states of consciousness

nature.com

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Re: Decreased CO2 during breathwork: emergence of altered states of consciousness

#121

Post by jboggan »

FrojoS wrote: post #72
timewizard wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah the wisdom has changed. This was more often taught when I was younger, which yes, was quite a while ago. The warnings given then were don't go for depth with this method, exhale occasionally while underwater, and manage your breath again immediately on the surface.

Interesting. Got a good source? I should definitely look into this again.

https://www.divessi.com/en/get-certified/freediving https://www.padi.com/education/freediving https://www.freedivinginstructors.com/ https://www.aidainternational.org/Education/AIDAFreedivingCo...

I've only taken the SSI training but I guarantee none of the different freediving organizations will recommend the type of breathing you are discussing, and in fact a large part of the intro course hammers home that you don't breathe that way.

Re: Decreased CO2 during breathwork: emergence of altered states of consciousness

#122

Post by elric »

FollowingTheDao wrote: post #118
sergioisidoro wrote: post #75

Personal anecdote: I do freediving, so CO2 tolerance training is common, and I've done it on and off. Basically you do breath holds to train your body to get used to high leves of CO2. I've found that brief high C02 levels are very good for activation, and to get out of a lethargic state. I don't know if a mix of cortisol and vasoconstriction and dive reflex triggered by the CO2, but I feel like it's a tool I have on…

Is it healthy to get into a near death experience just to get something done? Why is it "bad" to be in a lethargic state? Have you ever asked yourself these questions?

What makes you say that breath holding for diving is a "near death experience"? It's pretty safe from what I can see?

Re: Decreased CO2 during breathwork: emergence of altered states of consciousness

#123

Post by jboggan »

FollowingTheDao wrote: post #118
sergioisidoro wrote: post #75

Personal anecdote: I do freediving, so CO2 tolerance training is common, and I've done it on and off. Basically you do breath holds to train your body to get used to high leves of CO2. I've found that brief high C02 levels are very good for activation, and to get out of a lethargic state. I don't know if a mix of cortisol and vasoconstriction and dive reflex triggered by the CO2, but I feel like it's a tool I have on…

Is it healthy to get into a near death experience just to get something done? Why is it "bad" to be in a lethargic state? Have you ever asked yourself these questions?

I wouldn't characterize it as a near death experience but an activation of the mammalian dive reflex. It's a pretty profound physiological set of changes that most people have never experienced, oddly.

Re: Decreased CO2 during breathwork: emergence of altered states of consciousness

#124

Post by cbogie »

FrojoS wrote: post #77
underdeserver wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For someone with no connection to surfing at all, could you elaborate? Why is surfing special, or different from other sports, in needing to control your breathing?

You can somewhat simulate it yourself. Lie down, do a push up, then jump up to your feet, upright, arms raised (Burpee). Repeat in rapid succession twelve times, then immediately shut your mouth and close your nose with your hand. Hold it. Close your eyes and imagine you are under water and don‘t know how long it will take till you can resurface. You will feel an immediate urge to breath, a very unpleasant feeling in…

> Lie down, do a push up, then jump up to your feet, upright, arms raised (Burpee). Repeat in rapid succession twelve times, then immediately shut your mouth and close your nose with your hand. Hold it. Close your eyes and imagine you are under water and don‘t know how long it will take till you can resurface.

you forget, ‘put a blindfold on and tie your leg to a doberman’s leash then fall down 3-6 flights of stairs’

pretty similar forces and sensory at play, or at least a similar thrashing to big Teahupo’o over a sharp reef.

Re: Decreased CO2 during breathwork: emergence of altered states of consciousness

#125

Post by brians »

malfist wrote: post #30
accrual wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'ver heard the Aranet4 is quite good for this but haven't yet been able to justify buying one. I do try to open windows frequently, though.

I don't get why they're so expensive. You can buy the ndir co2 sensor on AliExpress for around $10. And yet they want $180 for that thing. And measuring humidity and barometric pressure is a component that costs $4 or $5 for you or I to buy.

They’re not using a $10 sensor. They’re being very careful which $40 sensor they use. And they’re calibrating the rest of the device to produce an accurate reading across its range.

Re: Decreased CO2 during breathwork: emergence of altered states of consciousness

#126

Post by keepamovin »

At some point the reductive paradigm fails: you cannot reduce conscious experience to reproducible isolatable variables. A more wholistic approach is required and I believe Western science can eventually accommodate that.

Advances in AI and big data may help that: a collection of seemingly disparate variables may define a space that correlates with qualia.

Re: Decreased CO2 during breathwork: emergence of altered states of consciousness

#127

Post by Azrael3000 »

sergioisidoro wrote: post #75

Personal anecdote: I do freediving, so CO2 tolerance training is common, and I've done it on and off. Basically you do breath holds to train your body to get used to high leves of CO2. I've found that brief high C02 levels are very good for activation, and to get out of a lethargic state. I don't know if a mix of cortisol and vasoconstriction and dive reflex triggered by the CO2, but I feel like it's a tool I have on…

I also tend to use my freediving experience for the opposite, when I'm highly stressed I tend to do one or two short (full exhale) breath holds to calm down. This works amazingly quickly and let's me refocus. Note, this will probably not work for untrained individuals.

Re: Decreased CO2 during breathwork: emergence of altered states of consciousness

#128

Post by maebert »

elevaet wrote: post #55
maebert wrote: post #33

i am a (former) neuroscientist and breathwork facilitator (mostly conscious connected breath) — AMA. the effect of decreased co2 concentration on vasoconstrictions (and also alkalosis-induced tetany, ie your muscles cramping, which happens a lot during breathwork) are well known [1], but i've never seen them quantified in such a clear way. It's cool to see mainstream science give it a closer look! [1] for anyone inte…

This is a bit off topic, but what do you think about people doing nitrous recreationally? It's always concerned me that people are inhaling close to pure nitrous oxide and holding it in. I've always wondered if this creates damaging low-oxygen conditions without the normal reflexes kicking in, and if this can cause brain/neuronal damage. I believe in medical settings it's delivered in a mixture with O2, but in recrea…

I'm not one to tell people not to have fun, but i also lost a friend to respiratory failure after prolonged nitrous abuse, and had more then one start having auditory hallucinations. I think it's waning in popularity compared to 10 years ago, but maybe I'm just out of touch with what the kids get high on these days

Re: Decreased CO2 during breathwork: emergence of altered states of consciousness

#129

Post by maebert »

eigenschwarz wrote: post #76
s1artibartfast wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Neuroscientist and breathwork facilitator, do you think there is any harm in intentional apnea (e.g. free diving, static holds, ect)? At what point does cell damage (not necessarily death), kick in? As someone involved in these sports, I operate under the assumption that any damage would kick in after loss of consciousness. For example, if I hold my breath, even for 4 or 5 minutes but dont pass out, that is an i…

Does this help? I am a physicist with interest in these subjects and have always been wary of breathwork because of tetany and the following studies. What do experts closer to this field make of these? [1] "Brain Damage in Commercial Breath-Hold Divers" https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... [2] "Do elite breath-hold divers suffer from mild short-term memory impairments?" https://cdnsciencepu…

So the tetany in breathwork is generally caused by the decreased CO2 concentration causing respiratory alkalosis (ie blood gets more alkaline and has a ph balance of > 7.5), which in turn causes the protein albumin to bind more strongly to calcium and not release it as it's supposed to, and calcium is an important regulator in voltage gated ion channels in neurons.

Long story short, your neurons get just a tad bit more excitable because calcium that usually acts like the bouncer to the hot club is busy snogging albumin. That has very little effect in places in the body, but in motor neurons that control your smallest muscles (face and hand), and in sensory neurons under your skin it does move the needle — that causes the muscles to contract and your skin to feel tingly, both exactly the same cause.

This is the reason people with epilepsy should _NOT_ do breathwork, but for otherwise healthy adults there are no negative long term effects of respiratory alkalosis — a few normal breaths to balance out your co2 and the symptoms will go away.

Re: Decreased CO2 during breathwork: emergence of altered states of consciousness

#130

Post by maebert »

eigenschwarz wrote: post #105
kragen wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you, this is terrific! Why should tetany be worrisome? Edited to add: the second article seems to be about decompression injuries, rather than apnea-induced brain damage?

In a medical setting, where I am more familiar with it, tetany is never good. Personally it is also wildly uncomfortable. Perhaps it's fine and somehow pushing through it is part of the "experience", but if I want an altered consciousness I'll stick to a psilocybin-based retreat every 5-10 years and my meditation practice in between :D.

yeah in a medical setting it's usually never good, but afaik it's not the tetany that doctors are worried about about but rather what's causing it.

I did a longer write-up on the physiological effects which you might find interesting: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RuDv_E9osM1CCFWZMywMru9J...

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