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Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

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Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#121

Post by robotresearcher »

aksss wrote: post #51
Aeolun wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me too. It was utterly bizarre. Spent 6 month looking for a job, with I don’t know how many failed interviews, then I got one offer for a 6 month contract, and suddenly the next two companies I interviewed with were falling over themselves to give me a permanent one. I just do not see how that works. There’s no logical reason for it.

Perhaps having the 6mo contract in hand increased your confidence and changed the way you were carrying yourself and interviewing (subtly to you, but meaningfully).

I think this is a real effect. Dating certainly has a version of this dynamic.

Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#122

Post by briHass »

bdangubic wrote: post #93
dlevine wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m job searching right now, and it’s definitely not the doom and gloom that I’m hearing about. I think it’s a challenging environment for developers who are either inexperienced or who have skills that are out of date. I have found that companies are a bit more picky than i remember about knowing the exact tech stack they use, but they are still making offers and those offers are pretty good. Note that I’m applying…

this is EXACTLY where everyone should be applying… too many people are nuts to work at faang, I can live 50 lifetimes and never understand it.

When the FAANGs stocks were soaring and they handed out options like candy, even low level devs at those tech companies were making the kind of money usually reserved for medical doctors and attorneys. There was a huge gulf between SV pay and pretty much everywhere else.

Now, those companies have mostly lost the luster they used to have, and the comp differences aren't as large.

Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#123

Post by neilv »

crazygringo wrote: post #103
neilv wrote: post #32

> Rule #5 of negotiation: don’t be the decision-maker. Even if you don’t particularly care what your friends/family/husband/mother thinks, by mentioning them, you’re no longer the only person the recruiter needs to win over. There’s no point in them trying to bully and intimidate you; the “true decision-maker” is beyond their reach. It's a very old thing in general, not just in job-hunting. And sometimes "I have to d…

I don't know why a listener wouldn't think it's for real? A new job can involve relocation, or if it's in the same city, prevent the spouse from a desired relocation. Not to mention people do tend to evaluate major life decisions with trusted friends etc. Discuss whether to job-hop now or wait to see if something better shows up in six months. I'm intrigued by your perspective that someone would assume this was non-l…

Of course most married people considering a job offer would discuss it, but that doesn't mean the person making the claim isn't actually just using a delaying tactic.

(For example, maybe they already discussed it with their spouse. Or they're going to discuss it in the next hour, but they are saying this when their goal is to effectively delay for a week.)

That's just one example of commonplace lying.

A lot of people will openly lie, and think that's normal. Even most of these advice articles for job-hunting are full of habitual corporate-standard lying.

But not all people are like that, and don't want to hire corporate-standard liars.

Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#124

Post by petesergeant »

neilv wrote: post #32

> Rule #5 of negotiation: don’t be the decision-maker. Even if you don’t particularly care what your friends/family/husband/mother thinks, by mentioning them, you’re no longer the only person the recruiter needs to win over. There’s no point in them trying to bully and intimidate you; the “true decision-maker” is beyond their reach. It's a very old thing in general, not just in job-hunting. And sometimes "I have to d…

I've worked as a recruiter, and I have never assumed "I need to check with my spouse" is anything other than real.

Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#125

Post by Kerrick »

mizzao wrote: post #37
1a527dd5 wrote: post #10

The best advice I found was in 'Never Split the Difference'. The rest is me being honest and direct.

Yep, I've read a lot of negotiation books and that's the one that explains all the other ones. Everything else (including this article) is a specific case of the models described in that book.

Also, Never Split The Difference is basically a negotiation-oriented, machismo-tinted version of Nonviolent Communication by Dr. Marshall Rosenberg. I highly recommend both books.

Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#126

Post by imperfect_light »

Aeolun wrote: post #41
aozgaa wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is addressed in the article: > Turns out, it doesn’t matter that much where your first offer is from, or even how much they’re offering you. Just having an offer in hand will get the engine running. > If you’re already in the pipeline with other companies (which you should be if you’re doing it right), you should proactively reach out and let them know that you’ve just received an offer. Try to build a sense of…

Me too. It was utterly bizarre. Spent 6 month looking for a job, with I don’t know how many failed interviews, then I got one offer for a 6 month contract, and suddenly the next two companies I interviewed with were falling over themselves to give me a permanent one. I just do not see how that works. There’s no logical reason for it.

Quantum entanglement

Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#127

Post by msteffen »

It’s funny, I switched from engineering to management a few years ago, and as part of learning to be a manager I really had to learn to negotiate (Avery Pennarun, founder of Tailscale, describes Eng managers as professional negotiators, which I think is at least partly true). I loved this article.

There’s a book on negotiation called “Getting to Yes” that uses a different framework, which became my preferred way to think about negotiation: The goal of a negotiation is to strike an agreement that both parties are happy about. The stereotypical negotiation, “I won’t go a cent below $10,” “well I won’t go a cent above $8” is bad negotiation because even if they meet at $9, neither is happy about it. Instead, the effective negotiator thinks creatively about what would make them happy and asks if it’s available.

As much as I basically agree with it, I would cast the advice in this article differently. Here’s my take, for what it’s worth:

- Re. all the author’s advice about withholding information: you may not be happy if one day you find out that you’re being paid 30% below market (though maybe you won’t care—know what you care about! It will help you negotiate more effectively). The ideal solution here, though, is to know about the market! Consult levels.fyi, talk to your friends, maybe interview from time to time before you’re really looking.

- Re. Don’t be the decision-maker: this is a useful rhetorical tactic, often also called “bad cop,” and it’s not really negotiation-specific but you can bring it into a negotiation if it helps you (at one startup, our co-founder would say on sales calls, “let me check with my sales team” when he was definitely the whole sales team). Honestly, IMO it’s only really useful if you’re trying to placate someone, which you hopefully shouldn’t be when you’re weighing their offer, but you’re welcome to use it if you have social anxiety about pissing off the recruiter (you probably won’t, but I understand the worry)

- Re. stay positive: …yes? The goal is to get to a deal you’re both happy with. If you’re already not happy, then the negotiation is already over. The effective negotiator walks away before getting mad—why burn a bridge over one deal not panning out?

- Have alternatives: honestly this is the main thing. I don’t know how much there is to say but anyone will understand you not being happy with a deal that’s already not your best option.

Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#128

Post by zulban »

taklimakan wrote: post #12

This is all very interesting, but is complete fiction for most readers. 99% of job seekers aren’t going to receive competing offers from multiple companies conveniently at the same time.

It doesn't seem you read the article completely. It is pretty long.

Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#129

Post by msteffen »

0xbadcafebee wrote: post #117

> A company’s goal is to hire someone who will become an effective employee and produce more value than their cost. This isn't true. They have no clue how to measure your value output. A company's goal is to make sure it has the staff to get its work done so it can sell its thing. A hiring manager's goal is to find someone to do the thing they don't have time/staff for. They will pay somewhere in the realm of whateve…

Yes! I wrote my own response, but your post made me realize the most important piece of missing advice: if you want a great offer, interview at a company with lots and lots of money

Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#130

Post by sharmi »

3eb7988a1663 wrote: post #53
mizzao wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, I've read a lot of negotiation books and that's the one that explains all the other ones. Everything else (including this article) is a specific case of the models described in that book.

I bounced on that book pretty quickly, so maybe I need to give it another attempt. It started off so generic and, "Here are my expert qualifications and anecdotes".

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