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EU sends Apple first DMA interoperability instructions for apps and devices

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Re: EU sends Apple first DMA interoperability instructions for apps and devices

#121

Post by tpmoney »

rickdeckard wrote: post #111
tpmoney wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed it is an OS. How many years will it be before audio on the Linux OS doesn’t suck? It’s way better than it used to be, but I still spent weeks this year trying to sort out what magic combination of alsa, and pipewire and pulse-audio and wireplumber setting, configs and launch timings would get HDMI audio to not come up muted on a mini PC with integrated Radeon graphics in Ubuntu. Surely the openness of the x86…

> How many years will it be before audio on the Linux OS doesn’t suck? to be blunt, it doesn't seem to suck whenever someone designs a consumer product around it. I have DVD-Players, BluRay Players, Network Radios, all based on Linux OS, and I never have to hassle with alsa and pulse-audio. In fact I never interact with the underlying Linux, just like accessory vendors don't use linux APIs to communicate with iOS. >…

> We don't need to imagine anything like this, the EU is not regulating any OS. The EU identified that Apple is a gatekeeper to a market and simultaneously a player there, controlling the market in its favor.

That market being… software development for their OS? And the features they are regulating being OS features (see “newly developed iOS feature”). So they are trying to regulate the OS then right? Like if Apple release iPhones with two OS options, “iOS Core” with not private APIs and no developer restrictions, but limited (even for Apple products) to all their things any external developer is limited to now and “iOS Apple Edition” with a model exactly like the current iOS and reserved all their “competitive advantage” features to interactions running against that OS, this clearly wouldn’t be good enough to satisfy the DMA requirements right? The goal isn’t that Apple competes “fairly” on any arbitrary platform, it’s specifically that Apple competes “fairly” on the platform that Apple puts their best features on.

Re: EU sends Apple first DMA interoperability instructions for apps and devices

#122

Post by tpmoney »

pimterry wrote: post #99
tpmoney wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like it would be easier to believe that Apple locking down access to things is the problem if anything at all comparable to their experiences existed outside. Yet whenever this discussion comes up, the answer to “why not just use Android’s ecosystem” largely seems to be that no such similar experience exists for Android. But why would that be the case if this was about Apple locking stuff down? Surely if a lac…

> Surely if a lack of open phone OS and feature access was the problem, we’d see a rich ecosystem of integrations that exist on Android devices that are just impossible to achieve on iOS right? ...yes, and that's exactly what has happened. Android has a thriving ecosystem of excellent smartwatches (Garmin, Pebble, Fitbit, Samsung & Pixel watches, etc) with lots of features (particularly around notifications and inter…

So what is the problem needing to be solved then? If there’s a thriving open ecosystem, that currently enjoys the majority of the market share in the EU per other commenters in this discussion, and the only way to get “locked in” to the closed ecosystem is to buy a phone and 100% of your accessories from a single minority vendor, why is this a problem? Why don’t people just chose the more popular, more diverse, open and thriving platform?

Re: EU sends Apple first DMA interoperability instructions for apps and devices

#123

Post by lucyjojo »

tpmoney wrote: post #102
rickdeckard wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Open protocols are great but they are also absolutely a hindrance on change. If you’ve ever worked on a public API you know how painful making a breaking change to that API can be. I worked on public API's. If there's a justified need for a breaking change, make a new API and deprecate the old one. It can of course be harder than this, but its complication mainly comes from proper PLANNING of the action and AWARENE…

Agreed it is an OS. How many years will it be before audio on the Linux OS doesn’t suck? It’s way better than it used to be, but I still spent weeks this year trying to sort out what magic combination of alsa, and pipewire and pulse-audio and wireplumber setting, configs and launch timings would get HDMI audio to not come up muted on a mini PC with integrated Radeon graphics in Ubuntu. Surely the openness of the x86…

i do not know about ios as i don't own an iphone, but sound has sucked on macos for every single macbook i have had the displeasure to use. - random full drop (have a little script to reboot the stack) - device aggregation failing when i add my motu interface and no obvious way to debug it (that's on a mac mini) - random semi-persistent stuttering when linking my mixer to my macbook via bluetooth (which did not happen on windows)

windows has not given me pain around audio for the longest time.

for some reason my ipad has been running smooth though, no complaint even with semi-exotic stuff

Re: EU sends Apple first DMA interoperability instructions for apps and devices

#124

Post by xvokcarts »

troupo wrote: post #114
xvokcarts wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My best guess, tbh, is apathy. That's rather why they're not activists in the first place. Exactly. A few people want interoperability and everyone accepts it because they don't care since it doesn't affect their lives. I'm not a policy expert, but this seems a bit like riding the high horse. The answer to "what's best for others" should not be "that which we want for ourselves" regardless of expertise. We're not t…

> The answer to "what's best for others" should not be "that which we want for ourselves" regardless of expertise. Do unto others what you would do unto yourself and all that. On top of that, a lot of people want interoperability, they just don't know how to express it in terms that the regular highly technical divorced from reality crowd on HN understands. An anecdote: My mom has used Apple's Books it since it first…

> Do unto others what you would do unto yourself and all that.

I think that means to treat others as you’d like to be treated when you interact, not actively do to people what you’d like others to do to you. “I know what’s best for you and I’m going to make sure it happens” is a threat to most people, I’d say, and that was my point about regulation enacted by expert groups without public vote.

> An anecdote: My mom has used Apple's Books it since it first came out.

When my mom was fed up with lack of a specific game (can’t remember which) on her iPhone, she switched to Android and hasn’t looked back since. No additional regulation was necessary and nobody was left behind.

> Sure, let's just have supranational companies create walled gardens with arbitrary rules. Nothing bad has ever come out of that.

Only when monopoly was involved.

I’m not against interoperability, but I think it’s wierd to force anyone into it, be it a company, or a consumer, since nobody is in a monopolistic position, and everyone has a choice. When people have a choice they can make it as they wish, and they do, that’s why Apple is not in a dominant position - because people can make a choice.

The thing that’s funny to me is that regulation now caters to people that want a specific device type with specific functionality dictated by government allegedly on behalf of the average consumer.

Re: EU sends Apple first DMA interoperability instructions for apps and devices

#125

Post by xvokcarts »

troupo wrote: post #109
xvokcarts wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Develop stuff the way we want, or lose sales" I think the wants (of the EU buyers) are far less homogeneous than the group of open integration activists make it look like, so there's no "we". We hear the opinions of the vocal ones and based on those voices regulation is enacted, but nothing changes for the silent majority. However, a lot of people in the EU may start caring if they can no longer buy what they want…

> However, a lot of people in the EU may start caring if they can no longer buy what they want just because of the vocal few, and they may stop being silent about it when it touches them. And what exactly will people not buy because of activists? Here's however, the counterexample of "companies are so good for customers why do activists try to ruin a good thing": https://mastodon.nu/@mentese@mastodon.world/1141937468…

> And what exactly will people not buy because of activists?

I think that was my reply to a post about Apple exiting the EU market (completely unlikely IMO, since that would reduce profits), which may cause those unable to buy what they want to question the sensibility of specific regulation.

> "companies are so good for customers why do activists try to ruin a good thing"

I don't think anyone said that. But enacting regulation forcing Volvo to give you a full experience without Google Account login is just acting a step too late if you already bought it, or taking a step too far if you'd like to buy it but don't like it enough, and are now demanding they change it.

Re: EU sends Apple first DMA interoperability instructions for apps and devices

#126

Post by dismalaf »

jisnsm wrote: post #108
dismalaf wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "USA" brand is currently taking a pummelling in Europe, this isn't a good strategy.

Maybe in progressive circles. There’s life outside too.

Nah it's pretty much every circle in Europe.

Macron in France and the current German government are centre right. Poland is socially way to the right. Baltics, Scandinavia, Italy, all pretty right wing.

Only Putinistas support what the US is doing with Trump, which is to say, almost no one in Europe.

Re: EU sends Apple first DMA interoperability instructions for apps and devices

#127

Post by attendant3446 »

intrasight wrote: post #44
zoobab wrote: post #31

DMA does not provide any means to run Linux on Apple devices. I don't want their shitty OS, but I like their hardware. Unfortunately, the law makers prefer to cement oligopolies (Android-iPhone), instead of installing fines for not documentating how their hardware works.

Regulating the requirement that Apple support Linux on Macs makes no sense. What does make sense - to me anyway - is for Apple to embrace Linux because they'd sell a lot more Macs. I assume there are many thousands of developers like me that detest macOS and won't even consider a Mac. But like you said, Apple is making some amazing hardware these days. I would buy a Mac if Linux was well supported. Apple did just fin…

> for Apple to embrace Linux because they'd sell a lot more Macs.

If that was the case, I think they'd have done it a long time ago. It is more likely that keeping users on Apple-controlled operating systems brings them more profit

Re: EU sends Apple first DMA interoperability instructions for apps and devices

#128

Post by ohgr »

dividedbyzero wrote: post #86
ohgr wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’ll be good for Apple. Everyone will go “yay” and buy another brand of crap smart watch, realise it’s total garbage and buy an Apple watch anyway.

I'd love to use a Garmin or a Suunto, but they aren't integrated very well on iOS and I like the convenience of my iPhone and Macbook too much to switch to an Android. I think there are a lot of people who're not very satisfied with Apple Watches for sports tracking or who'd just like something that lasts a week at least. There are quality options outside of Apple Watches if you don't need it to feel like a tiny iPho…

I have both a Garmin (Instinct solar) and an Apple Watch (S10). The Apple Watch is actually slightly more useful even if it doesn't last more than a couple of days. Actually if I'm honest the Apple Watch saved my life a couple of times. The Garmin is nice, but it's just not as useful.

Re: EU sends Apple first DMA interoperability instructions for apps and devices

#129

Post by rickdeckard »

tpmoney wrote: post #121
rickdeckard wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How many years will it be before audio on the Linux OS doesn’t suck? to be blunt, it doesn't seem to suck whenever someone designs a consumer product around it. I have DVD-Players, BluRay Players, Network Radios, all based on Linux OS, and I never have to hassle with alsa and pulse-audio. In fact I never interact with the underlying Linux, just like accessory vendors don't use linux APIs to communicate with iOS. >…

> We don't need to imagine anything like this, the EU is not regulating any OS. The EU identified that Apple is a gatekeeper to a market and simultaneously a player there, controlling the market in its favor. That market being… software development for their OS? And the features they are regulating being OS features (see “newly developed iOS feature”). So they are trying to regulate the OS then right? Like if Apple r…

The market being the sum of iPhone end-users buying other stuff than iPhones.

> The goal isn’t that Apple competes “fairly” on any arbitrary platform, it’s specifically that Apple competes “fairly” on the platform that Apple puts their best features on.

It's about putting features on the platform which are beneficial only to other products of Apple.

The goal is that if Apple offers products on the market it is gatekeeping, it does so in a way that doesn't hinder fair competition on that market.

Apple competing on headphones for iPhones while offering features that require iOS functionality not accessible to competitors is not fair competition.

Re: EU sends Apple first DMA interoperability instructions for apps and devices

#130

Post by kennysoona »

tpmoney wrote: post #102
rickdeckard wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Open protocols are great but they are also absolutely a hindrance on change. If you’ve ever worked on a public API you know how painful making a breaking change to that API can be. I worked on public API's. If there's a justified need for a breaking change, make a new API and deprecate the old one. It can of course be harder than this, but its complication mainly comes from proper PLANNING of the action and AWARENE…

Agreed it is an OS. How many years will it be before audio on the Linux OS doesn’t suck? It’s way better than it used to be, but I still spent weeks this year trying to sort out what magic combination of alsa, and pipewire and pulse-audio and wireplumber setting, configs and launch timings would get HDMI audio to not come up muted on a mini PC with integrated Radeon graphics in Ubuntu. Surely the openness of the x86…

> I still spent weeks this year trying to sort out what magic combination of alsa, and pipewire and pulse-audio and wireplumber setting, configs and launch timings would get HDMI audio to not come up muted on a mini PC with integrated Radeon graphics in Ubuntu.

This sounds very much like an edge case. Why didn't you use Windows or MacOS on the mini PC instead? Was it because you were unable to do so?

> Or how about the huge fight that systemd has been (and continues to be).

That fight was over pretty much when Devuan and Artix formed.

> If we imagine a world where os init was regulated by the EU,

The EU would only be interested in regulating this if it were an OS init controlled by a monopoly abusing their position.

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