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America Is Missing The New Labor Economy – Robotics Part 1

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Re: America Is Missing The New Labor Economy – Robotics Part 1

#121

Post by EMIRELADERO »

kccqzy wrote: post #114
megaman821 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are manufacturing jobs special? People will upgrade their tastes to consume more. Middle class houses with artistic stone work and well-manicured gardens. Skin treatments, massages, and health scans galore. More entertainment and more niche too. Banking apps that could win design awards. We are nowhere near the end of useful work.

Your comment perfectly illustrates why communism doesn't work. The one-sentence summary of communism is "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" and clearly people's needs grow. I don't know how much longer CCP can still keep communism in its name; how will CCP leaders reconcile that the fact that only by abandoning communism did the country rise?

What happens when every single physical and mental job that could be done by humans is done by AI/robots? Sure, you'll always have people imagining and creating new things, but it doesn't seem wise to tie that to economic compensation when technology reaches a state where every single human being gets to experience an upper-middle class American lifestyle, unconditionally, from birth to death.

Re: America Is Missing The New Labor Economy – Robotics Part 1

#122

Post by lenerdenator »

We didn't want a new labor economy.

We wanted ever-increasing returns for shareholders. If that meant parting out our industrial base to our main geopolitical rival, that's what that meant.

In the US, capitalism has mostly replaced nationalism and patriotism. In China, it augments those things.

Re: America Is Missing The New Labor Economy – Robotics Part 1

#123

Post by rtp4me »

Joel_Mckay wrote: post #98
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can eventually automate our economy by buying software and hardware from China. By electing Trump, we basically missed the chance to lead on anything, and instead decided to engage full time in trade and culture wars that aren't really going to yield anything. But as long as the work gets done, even if in China, we should be able to enjoy it.

Indeed, no one sane will invest in building factory systems on US soil under a Kakistocracy. Robot platforms are already a difficult business model in the private sector. With the exception of robot vacuums the market just isn't viable in the US yet. Best of luck =3

It seems Honda just decided to produce the next Civic in Indiana. See [1].

[1] https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/honda-...

Re: America Is Missing The New Labor Economy – Robotics Part 1

#124

Post by markus_zhang »

slothtrop wrote: post #88
ben_w wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If "meaning" was a good argument against UBI, then nobody would want pensions, because UBI is exactly the same as setting the state pension age to zero.

Leaving aside that older people aren't as enthused about FT work they've known for 30 years, many of them keep jobs or get bored and lonely without them. Not everyone wants to sit around crafting useless projects, or consuming. Creating value for others and connecting ( and status signaling) can provide meaning, and granted in retirement there are other vectors for that made available such as volunteering. It's not a…

I think volunteering could actually solve part of that. Butarge scale of volunteering work, thinking about the scale of unemployment in the future, might need governments to step in to create them.

Re: America Is Missing The New Labor Economy – Robotics Part 1

#125

Post by lenerdenator »

aaronblohowiak wrote: post #120
regularization wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keynes wrote about how this can be done, while kicking the can down the road. Basically debt of all types, and government spending. For the US this would be military expenditures and social welfare for the elderly. Of course the can can only be kicked down the road so far. So to answer your question more in depth, there was a German exile in England who wrote a book answering this question back in 1867.

And yet the revolutions he inspired end up (in many ways) more dystopian than the capitalism they seek to replace..

Since then there's been a realization that you can simply regulate the worst aspects of capitalism while still reaping most of its rewards.

Now, that has been realized - but hasn't happened - in the United States, but it can certainly be done.

It'll probably be too late though.

Re: America Is Missing The New Labor Economy – Robotics Part 1

#126

Post by Libcat99 »

llamaimperative wrote: post #42
krapp wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does your rent go up by the precise amount of your increase in income every year? Mine doesn't. My landlord isn't checking my W2 or tax statements for extra rent money, that isn't how it works. The assumption that all rents, everywhere, would go up by the amount of UBI is the definition of "arbitrary."

Are we talking about one person’s income going up, or knowably every single person’s income going up by a known amount? When minimum wage rises, yes rents rise. When high paying employers come to an area, yes rents rise. These are a lot more random/diffuse in the market than UBI is, but they still cause the same effect. Can you please explain why rents go up at all?

A broad UBI plan would likely not have every single person's income going up by a known amount, either.

Most of the plans I've seen taper off and then become a tax at certain income levels.

Re: America Is Missing The New Labor Economy – Robotics Part 1

#127

Post by gopher_space »

llamaimperative wrote: post #36
krapp wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Landlords can't simply arbitrarily raise rents like that. If they could, they would already charge every individual tenant 100% of their income. Renting is a market like any other, and markets have limits and competition. The renters that do try to increase rent by $1000 will simply not have tenants anymore, and those that didn't, would, because UBI means people can basically move anywhere, any time they like.

It’s not “arbitrary.” It’s raising rents for the same reason rents are ever raised: people’s willingness/ability to pay has gone up. That can happen because of a new subway station, a hot new employer nearby, or simply because money appeared in their pockets. If money were no object, more people would live in high COL areas, not fewer. You know this is true because you see it in the prices. To prevent rent increases…

> It’s not “arbitrary.” It’s raising rents for the same reason rents are ever raised: people’s willingness/ability to pay has gone up.

The only landlords who can afford to operate this way own many, many units. A long term tenant who pays in a predictable manner and isn't actively damaging property is worth their weight in gold, and you can't afford to roll the dice on the next tenant unless you're able to spread the risk and cost of the churn around.

Re: America Is Missing The New Labor Economy – Robotics Part 1

#128

Post by Aromasin »

rtp4me wrote: post #123
Joel_Mckay wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, no one sane will invest in building factory systems on US soil under a Kakistocracy. Robot platforms are already a difficult business model in the private sector. With the exception of robot vacuums the market just isn't viable in the US yet. Best of luck =3

It seems Honda just decided to produce the next Civic in Indiana. See [1]. [1] https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/honda-...

"Just decided" =/= decided today. They decided months if not years ago, after months of negotiations with local authorities. Don't look at plants opening now to judge the current administration. Look at it 2 years from now.

Re: America Is Missing The New Labor Economy – Robotics Part 1

#129

Post by gwbas1c »

tartuffe78 wrote: post #2

Who will buy the phones when no one is paid to produce them? The cars? The food and the clothes? Wealth keeps concentrating upward, great leaps in efficiency and throughput, but I can't see how it's a sustainable model for continued consumption growth year after year.

That was a fear the first time automation came around. (I have a vague memory of machines used for weaving textiles.) Turns out people bought more cheap clothes, and thus people were needed to run the machines.

I would assume that automating menial jobs in one place will create menial jobs in another place. I would also push for strengthening social security so we can lower the retirement age. If there really are less menial jobs to go around, it's easier to shrink the workforce if everyone can retire at 55 instead of 65.

Re: America Is Missing The New Labor Economy – Robotics Part 1

#130

Post by rtp4me »

sieabahlpark wrote: post #21
blueyes wrote: post #18

Some authors of this piece are deeply involved themselves in building robots and other hardware technology. They should be taken seriously. The US is moving into a trade war, however unwise, with the country that supplies components for everything we make and need. That country has expansionist ambitions and a superior manufacturing base, which is typically what wins wars.

Damn, thanks for plainly stating why we need manufacturing back to the states.

Yes, and I think this is the core motivation behind the Trump messaging - bring it back to the US if possible. In fact, he wants to bring back commercial and maritime ship building back[1]. Pretty cool! Hopefully this will employ lots of people.

[1] https://news.usni.org/2025/03/05/trumps-make-shipbuilding-gr...

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