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Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance

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Re: Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance

#121

Post by kome »

MortyWaves wrote: post #114
sph wrote: post #111

As an Italian abroad, this came out of the blue and I was not expecting this change of mind, at all. There have been two referendums on nuclear energy in Italy: one just after the disaster of Chernobyl. They tried again decades later, in 2011; just after the disaster of Fukushima. The result was of course overwhelmingly negative both times. This is great news, and will hopefully lower the cost of electricity that we…

Who's brilliantly dumb idea was it to have the only two referendums ever also immediately after a disaster? That is what you'd do if you want an overwhelmingly biased referendum playing off people's rash and short term panic based decision making.

The second referendum had been planned long before, and then the Fukushima disaster happened, just a couple of weeks before the vote. A stark reminder that nuclear energy is not safe.

By the way, Italy had several nuclear reactors, but they were shut down after the first referendum.

Re: Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance

#122

Post by est31 »

Fragoel2 wrote: post #89
est31 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Italy neither has the engineers to build a nuclear power plant, they would have to ask another nation, like Russia, Canada or France, to build it for them. And where does the nuclear fuel come from? Russia.

That is simply incorrect, Italian companies are already building nuclear reactors/power plants abroad. Enel has built/is managing nuclear plants in Spain and Slovakia: https://www.enel.com/media/explore/search-press-releases/pre... Eni is involved in building the first fusion plant: https://www.ansa.it/english/news/science_tecnology/2024/04/0...

I would classify ITER as basic research instead of a commercial nuclear power plant.

I didn't know that Enel operates nuclear power plants, that's interesting, but they seem to come from an acquisition of Endesa and have been constructed way before that acquisition, and from designs of foreign places. So they aren't modern generation reactors that one would want to build from scratch.

As for the Slovakian nuclear power plant, it's a russian design as well.

I don't doubt that Enel could operate nuclear reactors of foreign design, where Canada, Russia and France have strong capabilities, but if the design comes from a different country, do you really achieve the independence goal?

Re: Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance

#123

Post by sph »

kome wrote: post #116
sph wrote: post #111

As an Italian abroad, this came out of the blue and I was not expecting this change of mind, at all. There have been two referendums on nuclear energy in Italy: one just after the disaster of Chernobyl. They tried again decades later, in 2011; just after the disaster of Fukushima. The result was of course overwhelmingly negative both times. This is great news, and will hopefully lower the cost of electricity that we…

The import of electricity is around 10-15%, a significant amount, but Italy does not MOSTLY rely on imports.

https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Produzione_di_energia_elettr...

This says that up to 25% of electricity is imported during peak times, and as of 2016, Italy was the third-largest net importer of electricity after US and Brazil.

Re: Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance

#124

Post by stop50 »

kranke155 wrote: post #40
aw4y wrote: post #22

The problem with nuclear in Italy is just one: how many time have you read about a public bridge fallen because of bad construction? Same for roads, houses and so on. Most of the time the reason is the company building those, trying to spend less in materials and avoiding regulations - something unfortunately not so unusual in Italy. So imagine what could happen with a nuclear plant... (nuclear is safe, building in I…

France has never had a major nuclear accident. The biggest issue is of course, earthquakes in Italy.

They had luck, depending how hot this summer gets some nuclear facilities have to shut down again because the water gets to warm or they don't have enough water in the cooling water source.

Re: Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance

#125

Post by IsTom »

wkat4242 wrote: post #75
IsTom wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just don't build the plant next to Vesuvius. The biggest recorded earthquake in Europe was 7.1 magnitude, compared to 7.4 that caused tsunami that hit fukushima.

The thing is, it's not the biggest earthquake in the past we have to worry about, it's the biggest one in the future. And climate change can have very sudden and unpredictable results too as we've seen all over the world in recent years.

Europe just isn't a particularly seismically active and then only it's mostly southern Europe.

Re: Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance

#126

Post by trhway »

snowwrestler wrote: post #99

Maybe not well known, but during the 20th century a number of nations started a nuclear weapons program, but then were convinced to halt the work by security guarantees by the U.S. You better believe that every single one of those nations is now revisiting that decision. For those wondering if Italy can afford to build nuclear: their economy is larger than Russia’s. As is Brazil’s, another nation that put nuclear wea…

The world is lucky that Zelensky is the President of Ukraine and not somebody like me - given that Ukraine does have plutonium from its power plants, i'd be already making the warheads (technological difficulties? they were solved 80 years ago and with the modern tech the 3 years is more than enough to produce something working).

That is also notable in the context of Trump yelling at Zelensky that Zelensky is supposedly playing with WW3. If anything, by not making nukes Zelensky shows an, unreasonable at my opinion, restraint here.

Re: Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance

#127

Post by mpweiher »

ttoinou wrote: post #120
snowwrestler wrote: post #99

Maybe not well known, but during the 20th century a number of nations started a nuclear weapons program, but then were convinced to halt the work by security guarantees by the U.S. You better believe that every single one of those nations is now revisiting that decision. For those wondering if Italy can afford to build nuclear: their economy is larger than Russia’s. As is Brazil’s, another nation that put nuclear wea…

No their economy is not larger than Russia, this is a common trope among people whose only way to reach reality is to irrationally use statistics computed by bureaucrats

Actually: it is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi...

Re: Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance

#128

Post by kome »

sph wrote: post #117
MortyWaves wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who's brilliantly dumb idea was it to have the only two referendums ever also immediately after a disaster? That is what you'd do if you want an overwhelmingly biased referendum playing off people's rash and short term panic based decision making.

> Who's brilliantly dumb idea was it to have the only two referendums ever also immediately after a disaster? Well-timed populists.

> Well-timed populists.

not really. The referendum was planned long before Fukushima, but then Fukushima happened at just the right time, reminding voters just in time to vote against nuclear.

Re: Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance

#129

Post by sph »

kome wrote: post #121
MortyWaves wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who's brilliantly dumb idea was it to have the only two referendums ever also immediately after a disaster? That is what you'd do if you want an overwhelmingly biased referendum playing off people's rash and short term panic based decision making.

The second referendum had been planned long before, and then the Fukushima disaster happened, just a couple of weeks before the vote. A stark reminder that nuclear energy is not safe. By the way, Italy had several nuclear reactors, but they were shut down after the first referendum.

> A stark reminder that nuclear energy is not safe.

For some nebulous and often politically-charged definition of safety.

Re: Italy moves to reverse anti-nuclear stance

#130

Post by pjmlp »

torginus wrote: post #32
aw4y wrote: post #22

The problem with nuclear in Italy is just one: how many time have you read about a public bridge fallen because of bad construction? Same for roads, houses and so on. Most of the time the reason is the company building those, trying to spend less in materials and avoiding regulations - something unfortunately not so unusual in Italy. So imagine what could happen with a nuclear plant... (nuclear is safe, building in I…

National stereotypes... Italy's the 3rd largest economy in the EU, and 8th in the world, with an advanced technology sector to boot. And if they somehow cannot figure it out, their French neighbors most assuredly can.

As Portuguese, and regarding how things work there, regardless of whatever achievements get acomplished, the ways how to do business and handle bureaucracy walls aren't very far from stereotypes, even if it was improved during the last decades.

I assume same applies in Italy, given that we share some of those stereotypes.

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