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Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

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Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Herbert and similar are the release of information, the main "psi phenomenon" explored over the XX century being precisely the remotely induced belief in "psi phenomena". That rabbit hole goes deep, though I have my doubts as to whether it leads out .

No, psi predates modern sci fi and experiences of it are not generated by that. Belief is easy to find in preceding centuries too

I'm not talking belief either, I'm talking praxis ;)

IME, what you refer to by a Greek letter is either "just there" as part of one's perceptual and cognitive functioning, or "just isn't" - the latter obviously being the predominant case, being more adaptive for survival in a newly Enclosed world. One even has some degree of control as to enabling or disabling it. Without guidance as to avoiding its many pitfalls, though, it's still very easy to end up in a psychotic state, or some other uncomfortable frame and shape. Subsequently, the manifestation of cosmic love commonly called "natural selection" does what it's known to do...

(My pet theory is that Abrahamic faiths, the promotion of Christianity to state-religion, and the consequent Dark Ages, were all parts of a sort of mass political reaction to people overdoing that sort of thing. Took a bunch more centuries than expected to even force it underground, though. And, as these things go, it reemerged nearly simultaneously in the form of the indigenous knowledges of colonized folk, who were subjected to more of the same violence, and then some.)

What was being tested last century is whether the so-called "they" can switch it on or off for you, remotely; authors of fantastic literature, even if not directly informed from "on high", happen to be in a good position to sense these workings and conduct discourses on them. Makes for good business, too, since it is only natural for humans to want some enchantment in their lives. However, the background psychological pressures of living in perpetual encirclement naturally (well, mimetically) drive people to compartmentalization, such as the confining of these experiential coagulates into the sphere of "fictions" (if not outright "delusions", the distinction being, for the most part, simply of medium of conveyance.)

Thankfully, as we all know, fiction is something that doesn't exist, and it doesn't take much to realize how this statement cuts both ways.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plus oil geopolitics

Yeah, that's smart too. And how the "Spacefaring Guild" requires spice to navigate the best routes between the stars. Oil for transport. Everyone brought to their needs by Pauls' threat to switch off the oil supply. It's all so smart, Herbert was a hypergenius I think.

> Herbert was a hypergenius I think.

DUNE is (one of?) my favorite fiction reads and I have to resist turning all "fanboy" over it sometimes.

I love the sensation in DUNE that I'm inside a fully fleshed-out universe where the vision is so large I can't even see the edges, but here's one thread you might find interesting.

...that said...

I never really "got" the rest of the series. Never felt like Paul and his actions were acceptably justified beyond "yeah we would've all died out, trust me".

Separately, the whole, uh, female superpower thing came off as eye-rolling simp-nerd fantasy that wasn't up to the standard of the first book. It wasn't even spice-induced, it was just /muscles/ taking over mens' minds.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#123
post #119
post #109

I'm 100% onboard with the 'Lawrence of Arabia inspired Dune' theory but I think one of the cleverest things Herbert did with Dune is to introduce a 'visionary substance' (spice) into the otherwise austere Islamic-adjacent motif. He not only shrouded the spice in ritual and religion (which isn't THAT suprising considering many human societies used visionary substsances, and Herbert was a child of the 1960s psychedelic…

It bothers me that this doesn't actually sound that far from what a lot of folks seem to genuinely think? People are desperate for a panacea. But only if it works on the elites, it seems. Heaven forbid we come up with something that merely helps people lose weight. Worse, a lot of people mistake euphoria moments for being right.

It’s compelling because of course that is what people want.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#124
post #63

The parallels with Lawrence are obvious, but I find that the character of Paul Atreides follows some older models as well. Towards the end of the first book of Dune he has become an almost mythical figure, a Moses using his divine insight to lead his people to freedom, or a Mohammed throwing them into a global war of conquest. That ambiguity is perhaps the book's greatest achievement: Paul's actions are only justifia…

Interesting to note that the recent Villeneuve adaptation seems to lean heavily into the latter interpretation (Paul and Jessica especially are ruthless and want revenge/power) while the Lynch adaptation was probably more of the former (Paul really wants to do good).

Eh, that isn’t how I saw the movie at all.

They didn’t want revenge/power, they had no choice but take it or die. It’s even said explicitly in numerous places in the movie.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you really wanted to you could say even George RR Martin was influenced by it. (Game of Thrones spoilers below) Look at the character arc of Daenerys Targaryen in Game of Thrones. You will find some similarities there too both with Dune and with Lawrence of Arabia. But with a female character rather than a male.

Alot more parallels than that Starks = Atreides, Ned = Leto, Catelyn / Sansa = Lady Jessica, Paul = Jon/Robb, Duncan Idaho = Benjen, Gurney = Aemon Targaryen / Jorah Mormont, Chani = Ygritte / Arya, Jamis = Tormund, Dr. Yueh = Littlefinger Lannisters = Harkonnens, Tywin = Baron Vladimir, Joffrey / Jaime = Feyd / Rabban (to some degree, traits are mixed between these characters)

At some level you can map any epic to any epic.

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#126
post #109

I'm 100% onboard with the 'Lawrence of Arabia inspired Dune' theory but I think one of the cleverest things Herbert did with Dune is to introduce a 'visionary substance' (spice) into the otherwise austere Islamic-adjacent motif. He not only shrouded the spice in ritual and religion (which isn't THAT suprising considering many human societies used visionary substsances, and Herbert was a child of the 1960s psychedelic…

Plus oil geopolitics

Don't forget ecology

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#128
post #109

I'm 100% onboard with the 'Lawrence of Arabia inspired Dune' theory but I think one of the cleverest things Herbert did with Dune is to introduce a 'visionary substance' (spice) into the otherwise austere Islamic-adjacent motif. He not only shrouded the spice in ritual and religion (which isn't THAT suprising considering many human societies used visionary substsances, and Herbert was a child of the 1960s psychedelic…

Plus he also had the smarts to use plausible mechanisms to remove advanced computers (the Butlerian Jihad) and nuclear weapons (some sort of extreme taboo based on a historical event IIRC? it's been a while..) from the technologies available to the Dune universe. This allowed the exploration of all sorts of human developmental possibilities - the Bene Gesserit and mentats, advanced schools of martial art and mental discipline etc.

On the topic of the Butlerian Jihad, and its echo of the historic Islamic taboo on art representing living things - looking around the current world and bearing in mind how twisted out of shape our social conversation has arguably become so quickly given that iPhones only landed in 2007... you have to wonder whether it is such an outlandish idea. Looking at the news over the last few weeks and months makes me realise that it is incredibly hard to see outside your historical moment, until things just happen! There are many possibilities and reality can get weird...

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that's smart too. And how the "Spacefaring Guild" requires spice to navigate the best routes between the stars. Oil for transport. Everyone brought to their needs by Pauls' threat to switch off the oil supply. It's all so smart, Herbert was a hypergenius I think.

> Herbert was a hypergenius I think. DUNE is (one of?) my favorite fiction reads and I have to resist turning all "fanboy" over it sometimes. I love the sensation in DUNE that I'm inside a fully fleshed-out universe where the vision is so large I can't even see the edges, but here's one thread you might find interesting. ...that said... I never really "got" the rest of the series. Never felt like Paul and his actions…

> DUNE is (one of?) my favorite non-fiction reads

> non-fiction

I have some bad news for you...

Re: Lawrence of Arabia, Paul Atreides, and the roots of Frank Herbert's Dune (2021)

#130

When I finally got around to reading Seven Pillars , I wasn't too far in before I was convinced Herbert had the book on his desk the whole time he was writing Dune . So many minor similarities, little scenes that don't quite match up but if you squint they do. Even the arc toward eventually committing war crimes, while seeking some great end for the people he's leading, feels like a connection. But also little stuff…

I do think it's unfair when people claim Dune is a straight retelling of T.E. Lawrence's story. For instance I think the messianic aspects are drawn from other episodes in history, like the Mahdist War

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdist_War

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion

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