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Why I Hate Frameworks

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Re: Why I Hate Frameworks

#121

Post by michaelneale »

EliAndrewC wrote: post #117
arockwell wrote: post #15

On a related note, I saw this on reddit this morning: http://ws.apache.org/xmlrpc/apidocs/org/apache/xmlrpc/server... What's sad is that I have no idea if this is a joke or not.

On a similar note, the code parse an XML document in Java: Document doc = DocumentBuilderFactory.newInstance().newDocumentBuilder().parse("test.xml"); That's not even a framework; it's just what's in the standard library for parsing XML.

You can lay for that in the gang of four book which recommended things like "abstract factory" - the odd thing was, I thought most of those authors were ex smalltalkers?

Re: Why I Hate Frameworks

#122

Post by coolestuk »

jimbokun wrote: post #26
lallysingh wrote: post #16

I've seen good frameworks (OWL, Nitrogen + Powerplant, maybe 1 or 2 more), and I've seen a crap-ton of bad frameworks (any web framework on java, minus maybe WebObjects). They're necessary, but they're hard to do right. The man who did Powerplant said he went through about a dozen different designs before getting one he liked. That's why it was often so useful. Most times, people say "hey, let's take these APIs and l…

"minus maybe WebObjects" What made WO great were the tools. There was still complexity there, but WOBuilder and EOModeler made the whole process very productive. You could think of your data model, your interface, and your business logic independently of each other, and then use the tools to hook them together in a way that made sense. Because of the way the tools were designed, they actually made using good design f…

I would agree with you, apart from the remarks about "the (scrap) heap" :-) . I still use two of those technologies (WebObjects and Hypercard) almost every day, and I never used either of them until about 5 years ago. For what they do, they are peerless. For information about using WebObjects I'd suggest people visit http://www.wocommunity.org, and if anyone's interested in Hypercard, try http://www.runrev.com (a modern cross-platform hypercard).

Re: Why I Hate Frameworks

#123

Post by nailer »

alex_c wrote: post #96
nailer wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

End products are finished. If something requires assembly, it is not an end product.

LEGO is an end product.

Yes, but that's because Lego is sold on the experience of building. IKEA products, like Frameworks, are sold on the purpose of having something finished and useful at once you've put in a little work.

Re: Why I Hate Frameworks

#124

Post by curiousgeorge »

edw519 wrote: post #49
chez17 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Only when you dip down into the mediocre masses do you need this help." And what is wrong with that? Some of us aren't the programming gods you are. If it helps people why get so high and mighty about it? I know with your superior intellect us philistines might seem dumb to you, but maybe you should stop writing about how smart you are when you can't even spell "programmers" right.

Struck a nerve, huh? This was partially in jest (notice the lol), and I realize this is sometimes hard to convey in writing. Sorry. But there's also a lot of truth in it, too. No one is born a mediocre programmer. It's a choice. Notice I didn't say a "junior" programmer. There's a difference. A junior programmer has less experience, but has a good attitude, is willing to learn, and practice his or her craft to get be…

"Good luck figuring out what "a" "aa" or "aaa" mean."

It is the slow scream of death march.

Re: Why I Hate Frameworks

#125

Post by ntoshev »

ynd wrote: post #119
EliAndrewC wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a similar note, the code parse an XML document in Java: Document doc = DocumentBuilderFactory.newInstance().newDocumentBuilder().parse("test.xml"); That's not even a framework; it's just what's in the standard library for parsing XML.

I bet they were looking for extensibility. I wonder if they ever thought of providing two interfaces. 1. The first is the common case. Document doc = new DocumentBuilder().parse("test.xml"); 2. The second is more cumbersome but provides options. Document doc = DocumentBuilderFactory.newInstance(opts).newDocumentBuilder(opts2).parse("test.xml");

This is the facade pattern :) If you need it, this means you are overengineering. Applying it is even more overengineering.

Re: Why I Hate Frameworks

#126

Post by EliAndrewC »

ynd wrote: post #119
EliAndrewC wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a similar note, the code parse an XML document in Java: Document doc = DocumentBuilderFactory.newInstance().newDocumentBuilder().parse("test.xml"); That's not even a framework; it's just what's in the standard library for parsing XML.

I bet they were looking for extensibility. I wonder if they ever thought of providing two interfaces. 1. The first is the common case. Document doc = new DocumentBuilder().parse("test.xml"); 2. The second is more cumbersome but provides options. Document doc = DocumentBuilderFactory.newInstance(opts).newDocumentBuilder(opts2).parse("test.xml");

I think the common case could be even simpler

    Document doc = DocumentBuilder.parse("test.xml");
no need to manually create an instance of the builder.
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