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Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

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Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#121

Post by tdiff »

locusofself wrote: post #24

I like this approach to communication, except the the "deadline" part. I'd prefer my reports just let me know if they are working on something which I may want to veto (because I may have more context as to why it's a waste of time or not a priority). Giving a "deadline" to your manager is strange, and almost like a weird, annoying threat. I also would like to think I would give people on my team enough autonomy to m…

Second that. It is actually a threat to a manager that if he does not put aside all his work and spend time to figure out what the suggestion is, an overly enthusiastic employee would make something she thinks is reasonable

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#122

Post by lionkor »

Imustaskforhelp wrote: post #113

Yes I really like such approach. But it feels a little confrontational. Maybe I haven't read all the comments but I would love to if somebody could give me certain examples where it doesn't sound confrontational and maybe as confrontational as asking for a yes. I really like the approach but I think I would be looked as if rude , like look at that guy , he thinks he can do whatever he wants if I say nothing , Let me…

"Hi, I want to switch our logging solution in our client from Console.WriteLine to NLog, because it's been bothering our tech support that we don't have log levels for errors. I've made an issue here: ... . I have some time end of next week due to XYZ, so unless you object, I'll do that on Friday and put it up for review."

And then bother them until you get some reaction that they have read it.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#123

Post by Xmd5a »

motorest wrote: post #107
ryandrake wrote: post #33

This is a critical skill in big companies where everyone is swamped and busy and things get lost. I do this all the time when I’m dealing with people who don’t answer their email, or who tend to stall and delay approvals, or people who are just very busy. I’ll Email and describe the problem and then say the magic phrase “ If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days , I am going to do XYZ on [DAY N].” This way I’m not a…

> “If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days, I am going to do XYZ on [DAY N].” This way I’m not asking for approval and then helplessly waiting and pinging. I feel this tone is needlessly confrontational. You can very well state "II'm going to do XYZ because of [REASONS]. I'm going to do XYZ on [DAY N]. If anyone objects or has any reservations, please reach out to me." This approach also forces you to present a sou…

What about:

- If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days, I am not going to do XYZ, considering you don't deem it to be important.

>this cargo cult behavior of citing Amazon's leadership principles

Technical principles too: microservices. Firm size follow a Zipf distribution, thus in most case the decision was made it wasn't necessary and actually slowed down development.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#124

Post by RHSman2 »

Imustaskforhelp wrote: post #114
Buttons840 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you actually word this? "We plan to defragment the thingamajig on March 1st. We're reaching out to those who might have an interest in case this might cause problems. Please let us know if you have concerns about the defragment. If we don't hear from you by March 1st, the thingamajig will be defragged." Something like this?

I am also wondering this , how can we do this without being confrontational and also not being too wordy that you lose interest

‘Going to do thing but wanted to get your input and any impacts you face before this date’

Confrontation turns into a collaboration request.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#126

Post by whoknowsidont »

jsmeaton wrote: post #120

I often give similar advice to colleagues that ask me for pointers on getting their recommendations approved. "Make it as easy as possible for them to say yes" Don't dump 14 paragraphs in front of someone expecting them to get onto the same level that you've been after many hours of studying a problem. If you're confident in your approach (and you should be, if you want an easy yes!), then be succinct, briefly descri…

>Managers etc don't have time to get into the detail of every little thing, and appreciate when you've done the work, including gaining support from the wider team, so if they need to approve, they can just approve.

This is how popularity contests start lol. Managers that work this way are ineffective / pointless.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#127

Post by whazor »

ryandrake wrote: post #33

This is a critical skill in big companies where everyone is swamped and busy and things get lost. I do this all the time when I’m dealing with people who don’t answer their email, or who tend to stall and delay approvals, or people who are just very busy. I’ll Email and describe the problem and then say the magic phrase “ If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days , I am going to do XYZ on [DAY N].” This way I’m not a…

For teams where there is more document scrutiny and more involved team members, the key is to have two or three proposals and make a really strong case for your recommendation. And don’t even start a big review before having a recommendation. If you are stuck, I would suggest talking one on one with team members to get further. Also, try to remove all information that is not needed for the decision process to the appendix (or just fully remove it).

Your recommendation will be the approach that you will continue doing if there is no one disagreeing.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#128

Post by dheera »

jsmeaton wrote: post #120

I often give similar advice to colleagues that ask me for pointers on getting their recommendations approved. "Make it as easy as possible for them to say yes" Don't dump 14 paragraphs in front of someone expecting them to get onto the same level that you've been after many hours of studying a problem. If you're confident in your approach (and you should be, if you want an easy yes!), then be succinct, briefly descri…

> If you're confident in your approach

That's the thing. I'm not a narcissist, and my confidence in my approaches is driven by the objective statistics and uncertainties of the approach and NOT my ego.

If I think there's a 90% chance something will fail but there's a good reason to try it for the 10% scenario in which it succeeds, that's exactly my confidence and I'm not going to coat it in some bullshit pitch about how I'm confident it is going to work. If there's an 80% chance it is going to work, I will not lie about the 20%. And if I say 98%, it's actually pretty damn near that. The 2% accounts for my typical sick days per year.

Your job as a manager is to deal with these statistics and hedge the risks. Hedge funds do it with money, you do it with people and resources.

Unfortunately it's the people who say it's going to work 100% and actually fail 50% of the time that get the love of typical corporate managers.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#129

Post by nlitened »

whoknowsidont wrote: post #126
jsmeaton wrote: post #120

I often give similar advice to colleagues that ask me for pointers on getting their recommendations approved. "Make it as easy as possible for them to say yes" Don't dump 14 paragraphs in front of someone expecting them to get onto the same level that you've been after many hours of studying a problem. If you're confident in your approach (and you should be, if you want an easy yes!), then be succinct, briefly descri…

>Managers etc don't have time to get into the detail of every little thing, and appreciate when you've done the work, including gaining support from the wider team, so if they need to approve, they can just approve. This is how popularity contests start lol. Managers that work this way are ineffective / pointless.

A manager that organized their team so that each team member makes concrete thought-out proposals with all details covered, so that it's their only job left is to give approvals and do nothing else? I'd say that's a brilliant manager

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#130

Post by tdiff »

jrexilius wrote: post #32

This is a great way to frame it with the caveat that you've done a fair bit of homework to support your assertion. And the other thing I would add is context-aware time padding. The "deadline" should be adjusted to respect the bosses schedule AND the potential impact. i.e. if it could hit production, give them more time. If it can't easily be rolled back, give them more time, etc. But in general, if you are an adult,…

Probably most of so called software engineers consider themselves "competent". "Adults" are well aware of it, and apply to themselves, hence collect others opinion.
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