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Matrix Foundation to shut down bridges if it doesn't raise $100K

matrix.org

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Re: Matrix Foundation to shut down bridges if it doesn't raise $100K

#121

Post by zenexer »

Arathorn wrote: post #109
zenexer wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree--it doesn't feel resolved. I've been trying to use Matrix for so long now, and just recently gave another shot at helping my partner get up and running with Element X on her M4 iPad. It's still so clunky and so difficult to get off the ground. To start, E2E key verification just wouldn't work on Element X; she had to install Element, verify my key there, and go back to Element X. That would be easy to over…

This sounds very strange. Element X on iOS is a native Swift UI app, and for me (even in an enormous account) it’s super snappy - similar to WhatsApp or Telegram or iMessage. It’s not Electron, which is only for desktop apps; is there a chance you’re mixing up Element X with Element Web/Desktop (which is still sluggish, but should get much-needed upgrades this year)?

No, there's no chance I'm mixing them up. It's Element X from the App Store. The app label is "Element X".

If I'm using a mobile app, chances are I'm on-the-go. I probably have a slow, high-latency, or otherwise unreliable connection. It's possible it comes down to protocol differences that hinder UI responsiveness.

Edit: As a test, I just sent a message from my phone while on a cell connection with good service. Hitting the send button felt unresponsive: it took a bit for the message to appear in the chat history (maybe 100-200ms). That's on a stable 300 Mbps connection mere miles from my homeserver.

For contrast, Telegram doesn't wait to clear my text area. I can queue further messages to send even if my first hasn't gone through. Same for Slack and Discord.

Re: Matrix Foundation to shut down bridges if it doesn't raise $100K

#122

Post by saint_yossarian »

Arathorn wrote: post #111
saint_yossarian wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what exactly is the status of Element X? I was under the impression it's still in development, lacking some features of the old app, and will fully replace it when it's ready. If I search for Element on app stores I still get the old app first (with millions of installs, vs. tens of thousands with Element X), and https://matrix.org/try-matrix also still points people to the old app. So I'm confused what "past" you…

Element X exited beta in September, and is the preferred app from Element, as per https://element.io/app-for-productivity It doesn’t have threads or spaces yet; threads are underway currently; spaces will follow. Dendrite on the other hand has been relegated to an experimental server; we didn’t have bandwidth to do both Synapse and Dendrite so focused on improving Synapse instead, which has steadily become less of a…

Thanks! But still not sure why Element X isn't featured more prominently on matrix.org then.

And surprised to hear Dendrite is now just experimental and not the future anymore. The README and FAQ on GitHub give no indication of that at all, maybe start there?

Re: Matrix Foundation to shut down bridges if it doesn't raise $100K

#123

Post by rlpb »

Arathorn wrote: post #100
Sincere6066 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, I've tried to use Matrix many times overy many years. I do care about more than JUST the UX but it has been SO consistently bad that I just can't. Something has gotta change, preferably before Discord completely implodes.

the thing that changed is that Element rewrote the mobile apps and made them not suck. Web will follow shortly: https://element.io/blog/we-have-lift-off-element-x-call-and-... etc

I tried Element X but it failed to authenticate with no suitable explanation for me because it's lacking SAML support.

Edit: it's also lacking threads still, apparently?

Re: Matrix Foundation to shut down bridges if it doesn't raise $100K

#124

Post by Arathorn »

saint_yossarian wrote: post #122
Arathorn wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Element X exited beta in September, and is the preferred app from Element, as per https://element.io/app-for-productivity It doesn’t have threads or spaces yet; threads are underway currently; spaces will follow. Dendrite on the other hand has been relegated to an experimental server; we didn’t have bandwidth to do both Synapse and Dendrite so focused on improving Synapse instead, which has steadily become less of a…

Thanks! But still not sure why Element X isn't featured more prominently on matrix.org then. And surprised to hear Dendrite is now just experimental and not the future anymore. The README and FAQ on GitHub give no indication of that at all, maybe start there?

> But still not sure why Element X isn't featured more prominently on matrix.org then.

That looks to be a snafu. It’s featured on https://matrix.org/ecosystem/clients/ for instance.

> And surprised to hear Dendrite is now just experimental and not the future anymore. The README and FAQ on GitHub give no indication of that at all, maybe start there?

Yup, the readme needs to be updated and that’s with me.

Re: Matrix Foundation to shut down bridges if it doesn't raise $100K

#125

Post by cvwright »

pzmarzly wrote: post #68
Arathorn wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The irony is that I suspect we have fixed it - eg Element X and Matrix 2.0 is a massive step change forwards; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHyHO3xPfQU etc. But I can see why bad experiences in the past would stick.

Only for mobile, no? Element X for desktop is still in development, last time I checked, and the old client is as bad as ever. Element is the only piece of software where logging in and out (I don't want to be permanently logged in) proved to be too much of a challenge - I was regularly losing encryption keys on different devices.

Don’t log out!

If you are ever at a point where you have no active sessions (aka “devices”) then other clients will not be able to send you the keys to decrypt their messages.

This is one of the many ways to get “unable to decrypt” errors in Matrix.

Re: Matrix Foundation to shut down bridges if it doesn't raise $100K

#126

Post by cvwright »

kevincox wrote: post #117
Arathorn wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because if your friends start roaming around the public Matrix network and find public chatrooms full of abusive content, then they will indeed be affected. see https://matrix.org/blog/2025/02/building-a-safer-matrix/ for more.

This seems like tough choices to make. I see a lot of concerns. 1. The Matrix Foundation wants to promote communities to encourage adoption. 2. Matrix needs tools for moderating communities, even if the Matrix Foundation doesn't run communities. So it probably does make sense for the Foundation to take this problem on, even if not directly required to making a chat protocol.

It’s a super hard problem.

So much so that it’s looking like maybe federation is not the best model. Your server ends up hosting any room and potentially any media that any of your users gets into. So naturally server admins must take an interest us in what their users are doing. This is in conflict with the top level goals of freedom and privacy.

Maybe the simpler client-server model of the web is better after all. Then if some user on my server is also into some super weird stuff, I don’t have to know. Because they connect to the weird server directly from their client, not through me.

Re: Matrix Foundation to shut down bridges if it doesn't raise $100K

#127

Post by mattl »

bluesomewhere wrote: post #93
mattl wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've found Matrix (clients, I guess) really hard to use... but I'm in IRC channels where lots of people are using Matrix. What are people using?

Might be worth revisiting, we've seen great improvement in the last year :) I use Element X as my mobile daily driver, and use Element Web on my laptops. Feel free to ping me if you have any questions! (meta: I need to create a new account here... but engaging here with this one since it'd be suspicious to have a new account with zero karma weighing in.)

Hey Robin!

Element Web is I believe what I’ve used in the past and didn’t enjoy. I like the UI of Slack but not the UI of Discord.

I’ll give it another look. I asked on Mastodon for any native apps for desktop people are aware of. I’ll see if that yields anything.

Re: Matrix Foundation to shut down bridges if it doesn't raise $100K

#128

Post by throwaway3982 »

Arathorn wrote: post #100
Sincere6066 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, I've tried to use Matrix many times overy many years. I do care about more than JUST the UX but it has been SO consistently bad that I just can't. Something has gotta change, preferably before Discord completely implodes.

the thing that changed is that Element rewrote the mobile apps and made them not suck. Web will follow shortly: https://element.io/blog/we-have-lift-off-element-x-call-and-... etc

[dead]

Re: Matrix Foundation to shut down bridges if it doesn't raise $100K

#130

Post by genewitch »

kevincox wrote: post #115
Arathorn wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the thing that changed is that Element rewrote the mobile apps and made them not suck. Web will follow shortly: https://element.io/blog/we-have-lift-off-element-x-call-and-... etc

For the second time... And they still don't support many features... And there is lack of compatibility for things like video calling so transitioning to them is infeasible for lots of people. This sort of seems like the sort of UX issue OP is concerned about.

Video calls work on schildichat on android but I use straight element now and I'd have to check.

We are all aware that matrix needs a TURN/STUN server to do audio and video calls, right? I think users might be able to specify their own turn server, but if your homeserver can't punch NAT you're not making video calls, period.

I don't know of any non-centralized functional service offhand that can do peer to peer video or voice without an intermediary 100% of the time. That crap died in the 90s.

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