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UnitedHealth overcharged cancer patients for drugs by over 1,000%

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Re: UnitedHealth overcharged cancer patients for drugs by over 1,000%

#121
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the only contribution of Big Pharma is that they take the risk, collect the funding and do some administrative stuff. It sounds to me like we can get rid of this middle man with some well managed governmental institutions.

> So the only contribution of Big Pharma is that they take the risk That seems to me like the big thing you're kind of glossing over. Like I said, I don't really want to go to the mat for them, but I'm sure there's plenty of risks Big Pharma corps have taken buying up research they thought would pay off and then failed to bring to market. Maybe it'd be better to have governments buying the research and bringing it to…

A government, by its size, can spread the risks.

Re: UnitedHealth overcharged cancer patients for drugs by over 1,000%

#122
post #7

Nothing is shocking about the insurance industry anymore since they’ve been pulling this kind of thing for years. To me the most shocking thing is the people who defend them. I understand the drive to make money and build huge businesses: what confuses me is that we treat human health the same as things that don’t directly impact the health of people. It seems to me that there are endless opportunities to get insanel…

Does anybody defend them? I’ve been on the selection side as an employer and several others will probably echo what I’m about to say. Virtually every insurance provider is going up 15-20% / year to the point that it’s completely unsustainable. United was quoted to me as almost 20% lower than current rate for our provider (before they are about to go up 20%). On premium alone they will save some people close to $500 /…

It's easy to just blame the insurance providers, but keep in mind:

Everybody expects a higher standard of care, because now we treat things that we didn't even know about in the past. For example, I have a CPAP and went through surgery for sleep apnea. 50 years ago, who knows what would have happened to me?

Medical providers are incentivized to "find" things to bill for. For example, I went to a podiatrist for foot pain, and she tried to figure out how to have me visit monthly.

Likewise, end-of-life issues can get very expensive, because it's hard to say "no" when loved ones' emotions are fragile.

Re: UnitedHealth overcharged cancer patients for drugs by over 1,000%

#123
post #46
post #7

Nothing is shocking about the insurance industry anymore since they’ve been pulling this kind of thing for years. To me the most shocking thing is the people who defend them. I understand the drive to make money and build huge businesses: what confuses me is that we treat human health the same as things that don’t directly impact the health of people. It seems to me that there are endless opportunities to get insanel…

Insurance isn't a good industry to "get insanely rich". It doesn't have high profit margins. For one thing, the ACA mandates that insurance companies can't keep profits past a certain point. My sense is that people expect too much from their health insurance. Subconsciously, we expect to experience no pain and live forever. When this inevitably doesn't happen, we blame insurance companies for not bankrolling infinite…

The miracle of US healthcare is how at every step, work is done to minimize every party's ability to either use market power to lower costs, or to make people cost-conscious about their own expenses.

Insurance, in a vacuum, detached from an industry is a perfectly sensible way to try to spread risk. And as you say, this fair, reasonable insurance isn't about getting extremely rich, but about being the best at identifying where the risks are, and using market power to lower costs. But with healthcare, and especially with the US peculiarities, we manage to get minimal value out of it.

People getting care don't know their options, and how different the pricing can be. Insurers are capped by a percentage of services paid, so they really are happy if everything is very expensive. Providers band together into conglomerates that make sure it's hard for insurers to lower reimbursement rates. Pharmacy benefit managers build complicated schemes that let them take a bigger piece of the pie. They even purchase pharmacies, and restrict the expensive purchases for themselves, while the local pharmacy is squeezed. All in all, it gets very expensive, with minimal control of spiraling prices, and nobody that can lower costs is incentivized to do so.

We blame insurers because that's the people that get paid first, but yes, it's not really a matter of just insurers. It's a kafkaesque system that is basically impervious to significant reform. And for good reason: Every dollar we overpay is someone else's salary. A decrease in costs per person for the same care to match, say, Spain would involve a whole lot of people making a lot less money, including many losing their jobs. Not exactly a political winner, even though the country would be better off with more efficiency

Re: UnitedHealth overcharged cancer patients for drugs by over 1,000%

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But has everything to do with the need to take a closer look at the entire system and how we can do things better. I feel like focusing on this part of my comment vs. the bum deal part is disingenuous since non-US countries have figured out how to do it for cheaper with better outcomes without the main focus being the up and to the left drive for profit that our current system mandates.

> But has everything to do with the need to take a closer look at the entire system and how we can do things better. People do that literally everyday. If there was a silver bullet, we'd take it.

If there is a silver bullet, the first step would be getting rid of the for profit mechanisms.

Instead, because despite data linked in this thread that profit margins are only a few percentage points, Healthcare is an incredibly lucrative field that extracts a lot of money into the private market without delivering results commensurate with the cost to the public.

Add to that lobbying making it incredibly simple and cost effective to influence policy (which comes out in the P&L as a cost of doing business and so isn't tracked as profit FWIW), we are stuck with this situation despite overwhelming evidence that it's a bad deal.

Re: UnitedHealth overcharged cancer patients for drugs by over 1,000%

#125
post #107
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It shows that the US never had a world war on the continent. All the other countries treat health care as a matter of national security. The US’s primary concern is mark to market in pension funds.

>It shows that the US never had a world war on the continent. All the other countries treat health care as a matter of national security. Sounds like https://xkcd.com/1122/ For instance, Canada, which also arguably "never had a world war on the continent" has public healthcare. What gives? What about all the central/south american countries that don't have public healthcare?

Hey don't forget all those brutal incursions during the war of 1812.

Re: UnitedHealth overcharged cancer patients for drugs by over 1,000%

#126
post #64

Just look at the per-capita spending on healthcare by OECD countries, basically all of which have universal healthcare except for the US [1]. So the US pays almost twice as much as #2 (Switzerland) for significantly worse outcomes and less coverage. The US healthcare system is an unmitigated disaster that is a cautionary tale in how capitalism only promotes rent-seeking and regulatory capture. It's done with a servic…

"cautionary tale in how capitalism only promotes rent-seeking and regulatory capture" is a weird takeaway from this when the same applies to government-run healthcare. medicare, medicaid, veteran's affairs combined almost approaches OECD levels, but only covers a fraction of the population.

Re: UnitedHealth overcharged cancer patients for drugs by over 1,000%

#127
post #19
post #7

Nothing is shocking about the insurance industry anymore since they’ve been pulling this kind of thing for years. To me the most shocking thing is the people who defend them. I understand the drive to make money and build huge businesses: what confuses me is that we treat human health the same as things that don’t directly impact the health of people. It seems to me that there are endless opportunities to get insanel…

How do you respond to people that say the profit motive is what drives innovation, and in the long term we’d rather have better, novel treatments sooner

You don't, because they are trolls.

You can't possibly argue in good faith that being able to provide less than 0.1% of novel treatments is somehow more valuable than providing good, standard healthcare with already existing drugs and treatment protocols to the other 99.9% at a sane cost.

Re: UnitedHealth overcharged cancer patients for drugs by over 1,000%

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with greed is it has no limits. These people are happily dancing on graves all the way to the bank, and we allow it.

"chart goes up and to the right!" seems to excuse just about anything in some peoples' political philosophy. much shareholder value was increased, I'm sure.

Why would anyone expect it not to go to the right?

I wonder if places that read right to left also chart things so that 0 is on the right side and the positive numbers are on the left.

Re: UnitedHealth overcharged cancer patients for drugs by over 1,000%

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does anybody defend them? I’ve been on the selection side as an employer and several others will probably echo what I’m about to say. Virtually every insurance provider is going up 15-20% / year to the point that it’s completely unsustainable. United was quoted to me as almost 20% lower than current rate for our provider (before they are about to go up 20%). On premium alone they will save some people close to $500 /…

It's easy to just blame the insurance providers, but keep in mind: Everybody expects a higher standard of care, because now we treat things that we didn't even know about in the past. For example, I have a CPAP and went through surgery for sleep apnea. 50 years ago, who knows what would have happened to me? Medical providers are incentivized to "find" things to bill for. For example, I went to a podiatrist for foot p…

The point is that other countries are realizing the same or better (generally better) levels of care while confronting the same issues.

Privatization and ineffective/lobbyist-written regulation is and has been the problem from the beginning.

Adding "but before all those complex concerns, our number one priority is making a profit" is literal insanity.

Add to the mix that employers are only incentivized to provide care for accute conditions that jeopardize productivity (rather than things that improve longevity and quality of life), and I mean... what did anyone expect?

Healthcare is complex but understanding why we're living in a failure mode isn't. The fundamentals are completely incorrect.

Re: UnitedHealth overcharged cancer patients for drugs by over 1,000%

#130
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if that's true for the actual pharmas, how are insurance companies like UHC innovating? They're just middlemen.

I'm not sure about UHC specifically, but insurance companies do innovate. Some insurers have invested pretty heavily in biotech and wearables, and they're also a big driver behind telehealth/remote health monitoring tech. We can cynically say that they're just in it because they want to reduce costs – and that's probably true – but it'd be simplistic to say investing to reduce costs is purely selfish.

> biotech and wearables

Tracking and data harvesting, excellent!

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