Live data from Hacker News

The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

mjg59.dreamwidth.org

121–130 of 493 posts

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#121
post #94
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true that known-compromised keys get revoked, but it's possible to avoid them knowing you've compromised a particular device.

I think there's some kind of watermarking going on, so once a rip is released to the public they can trace it back to which device keys were used to decrypt it.

Watermarking was a problem when Widevine L1 was first introduced. Pirates seem to have found a way to scrub the watermark from their releases. Either that or someone is burning a _lot_ of cash on playback hardware judging from the rate of 4K WEB-DL releases.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Active player counts: Minecraft: ~185,000,000 World of Warcraft: ~7,250,000 Dragons Dogma 2: ~4000 This seems more along the lines of nobody bothers to crack games nobody wants to play.

DD2 is a single player game, those generally don't maintain their active player counts forever. It peaked at 228,285 concurrent (not total) Steam players which are pretty good numbers.

The peak was the release, after which it promptly cratered. It was below half that within a month and below 14k the next month.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#123
post #14

There’s some technical details missing here. I get decrypting the video on a gpu makes it harder to screen capture, but can’t you just still emulate the GPU in software or directly capture the digital video output? The GPU still has no unique hardware private key, right?

The parts involved in protected Audio/Video path do have their own encryption keys and hardware support outside of anything touched by the OS. In fact it's major part of what Intel Management Engine does if you do not have the "advanced" license for remote management, and AFAIK why AMD PSP on normal AMD cpus has closed source firmware. Both are responsible for setting up protected media path and both are interrogated by DRM modules to setup encryption.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#124
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so the theory is that Microsoft is after the revenue from Windows 11 licenses? And the way they're achieving this is by forcing people who want to upgrade from Windows 10 to buy a new machine rather than install Windows 11 on their existing machines? If that was the motivation, there's a far more direct option available. Just charge for the upgrade. For this theory to work, it would have to be that there's a sign…

> If that was the motivation, there's a far more direct option available. Just charge for the upgrade. That's a far more direct option, which also largely doesn't work . Corporate IT doesn't like doing in-place major OS upgrades. Consumers just plain won't , unless it's free and easy.

Sure, let's say that's true. The obvious implication is that these users actually don't care about whether they're running Windows 11 or not, and thus the Windows 11 TPM requirement is utterly irrelevant in their decision to buy a new computer.

I don't see how this supports the theory that this is all about revenue from Windows OEM licenses from forced hardware upgrades.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#125
post #15

> GPU vendors have quietly deployed all of this technology Citation or technical details needed. Obviously it "makes sense" that for 4K HD content you "probably" want to offload the decoding into the GPU, but this is the first time I see this mentioned and there are no links to technical details. In contrast, TEE / TrustZone and even the recent AVF with pVM - these are well documented technologies.

It was a big deal when Vista was released, with coincided with a lot of generational change in home computers (Watching Blu-Ray on computer still seemed to be a thing to expect, HDMI with HDCP was introduced, etc).

There was a lot of talk about protected media path in Vista, how it linked with HDCP, how it killed hardware accelerated audio (including causing considerable death blow to promises made by OpenAL), etc.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#126
I fully get the DRM hate.

Now I don’t really follow the Windows world but I thought the goal of the newer TPM stuff was to be able to provide a trusted boot chain the way Apple does. I’m under the impression that some of the earlier versions allowed the TPM module to be a separate piece of hardware from the CPU and thus exposed an hardware attack path where someone could snoop or man in the middle.

If you have a full trusted chain you can certainly use that to ensure that the DRM isn’t being tampered with. But I kind of doubt that’s the main reason behind all of it. There are enough good reasons they may want better security on the hardware outside of that it seems justifiable that they might push it.

I’m not arguing it’s good or bad, I just don’t think it’s 100% about DRM and the rest is a smoke screen.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#127
post #103
post #26

> I'm going to be honest here and say that I don't know what Microsoft's actual motivation for requiring a TPM in Windows 11 is. It is quite obvious: to force people to buy a new PC. TPM provides no added security value for the vast majority of users[1] but it is a convenient hardware that has only started to become standard (fTPM) in PCs built in the last ~8 years so it provides an excuse for Microsoft to declare co…

> TPM provides no added security value for the vast majority of users[1] Yes it does. The vast majority of users aren't going to have their laptop stolen by the CIA/NSA and have their DIMMs popped and cryofreezed. The vast majority of users aren't going to have the case opened and a special-purpose PCIe device installed to steal keys over DMA. The vast majority of users aren't going to have a dTPM vulnerable to SPI s…

> The vast majority of users aren't going to have their laptop stolen by the CIA/NSA and have their DIMMs popped and cryofreezed.

That's kind of the point. The vast majority of users aren't going to have their laptop stolen at all, if they do it will 99% of the time be by someone who only wants to wipe it and fence it, and attempts to access data are most likely to be by unsophisticated family members who would be defeated by a simple password without any TPM.

Meanwhile there have been plenty of TPM vulnerabilities that don't require anything so esoteric and can often be attacked purely from software, so if a normal user was facing even so much as someone willing to watch some security conference talks, they're going to lose regardless. If the TPM doesn't make them more vulnerable to that, because it contains the secrets and is susceptible to attack, vs. FDE with a boot key stored in some cloud service secured with the user's password instead of a TPM, which can then rate limit attempts without being susceptible to physical access attacks and be revoked if the device is stolen.

Moreover, the more common threat to normal users is data loss, in which case you only want your laptop to be secure against your unsophisticated nephew and not the tech you want to recover your data after you forget your password.

> In as much as there are attacks against SMS 2FA, but for the vast majority of people, SMS 2FA is an acceptable level of security.

The current recommendation seems to be against SMS 2FA because the security of SMS really is that bad, so if you need 2FA, use an authenticator app or similar.

> FDE (w/ TPM) is part of defense-in-depth.

Any snake oil can be painted as defense-in-depth.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#128
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially when you add HDR to the mix, I think it's still extremely difficult to get a high quality screen recording, if only because it's so hard to get the exposure right.

You'd think so, but I've already run into a situation where DRM broke our screen capture for a live talk recording and I simply set up a camera to record the screen. With a little bit of work (display a few calibration targets and build a quick and dirty LUT to match your display) you can get really convincing results.

It was good enough for the moon landing. The video feed from Apollo 11 was some special format that was specially decoded onto a particular monitor. There was a camera pointed at the screen to rebroadcast the feed globally.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#129
post #18
post #14

There’s some technical details missing here. I get decrypting the video on a gpu makes it harder to screen capture, but can’t you just still emulate the GPU in software or directly capture the digital video output? The GPU still has no unique hardware private key, right?

Capturing the digital video output is supposed to be prevented by HDCP encrypting the signal, but in practice that's pretty well broken. That is a (slowly) moving target though, each time they roll out a new HDMI version (e.g. for 4K) they get to enforce a new version of HDCP which needs to be broken all over again. I don't think the version of HDCP attached to HDMI 2.1 has been broken yet but that's kind of a moot p…

Also note that the HDMI Forum refuses to allow AMD to make an open source implementation of HDMI 2.1 in their drivers for this reason.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#130
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> TPM provides no added security value for the vast majority of users[1] Yes it does. The vast majority of users aren't going to have their laptop stolen by the CIA/NSA and have their DIMMs popped and cryofreezed. The vast majority of users aren't going to have the case opened and a special-purpose PCIe device installed to steal keys over DMA. The vast majority of users aren't going to have a dTPM vulnerable to SPI s…

> The vast majority of users aren't going to have their laptop stolen by the CIA/NSA and have their DIMMs popped and cryofreezed. That's kind of the point. The vast majority of users aren't going to have their laptop stolen at all, if they do it will 99% of the time be by someone who only wants to wipe it and fence it, and attempts to access data are most likely to be by unsophisticated family members who would be de…

imo sms 2fa is great since it is sufficient to stop automatic mass account stealing.
Post reply on HN