Live data from Hacker News

Fake Nintendo lawyer is scaring YouTubers, and its not clear YouTube can stop it

theverge.com

121–130 of 201 posts

Re: Fake Nintendo lawyer is scaring YouTubers, and its not clear YouTube can stop it

#121
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet YouTube's system takes a lot of time from the time the content is claimed to the time you can escalate to an actual DMCA. In this time your video is down or has its revenue redirected. And if your content gets too many frivolous claims your account is taken down by YouTube's three strike policy before you have finished the dispute process for the first video. A single button to immediately and without human revie…

Your idea for a "single button to immediately restore the video" system would violate the takedown process outlined in the DMCA. The way it works is that after someone sends a takedown request, the content can't be restored until 10 business days after the person who uploaded it sends a counter-notice. This gives whoever sent the takedown request enough time to decide whether they want to file a lawsuit and keep the…

> Your idea for a "single button to immediately restore the video" system would violate the takedown process outlined in the DMCA.

IIUC, YouTube's copyright system is not a digital implementation of the DMCA. It's an additional system that occurs before the DMCA notice/counter-notice process so the laws about the DMCA are moot because it's not a DMCA notice (yet).

Re: Fake Nintendo lawyer is scaring YouTubers, and its not clear YouTube can stop it

#122
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hold onto the revenue until the dispute is resolved They do that: https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/7000961?hl=en

Caveat is if you file the counter within 5 days. From listening to a few creators describe the counter filing process, you need to gather a lot of evidence to prove that you are not infringing. It apparently takes a lot of time and what happens is that targeted harassment very easily turns into a DOS-like attack. So 5 days is an unreasonably short time window that puts an extreme burden on the content creator. Edit t…

Hold on, A video that infringes will almost most certainly be a mix of their content and your own new content.

You should have to negotiate a percentage fee, not assume the claimant is entitled to 100%

Re: Fake Nintendo lawyer is scaring YouTubers, and its not clear YouTube can stop it

#123

It is perfectly clear that YouTube can stop it. As the article points out, we know there are things YouTube can do because those are the very same things The Verge asked about and YouTube refused to answer. The DMCA is broken, yes, but YouTube has made it worse with their kind-of-but-not-actually-DMCA counter-claim process. If they really wanted to solve it, here's an idea: if you get a takedown notice you also get a…

That exists, it's called a DMCA 512 counternotice; if you're particularly monied you can even sue under 512(f) for perjury. The problem is that the videos are actually infringing, but the owner of the content does not want to sue.

Under very basic principles of law, only the owner or exclusive licensee of a copyright has standing to sue for copyright infringement. Furthermore, copyright law does not obligate copyright owners sue or license like trademark does. Therefore, for uses which are inconvenient[0] to sell a license for, but not damaging enough to go to court, copyright owners will often tacitly permit the use by simply failing to enforce their rights.

The problem is that courts have a very high bar to recognize tacit permission as a license. It's not impossible; there are some famous examples of 'implied license', but no competent lawyer would actually recommend you go to court and claim such a thing. One particular complication would be that if, say, you sued Fake Nintendo, and claimed fair use as a rationale for using Real Nintendo's content, Real Nintendo might want to actually sue you just to kill the fair use claim[1].

Just as an example of how complicated tacit permission can get:

Bungie's Destiny 2 is a perpetually updated "live service" game with an ongoing policy of removing content to keep download sizes reasonable[2]. As a result, there is music in the game that is no longer accessible. Bungie does not want people uploading the game soundtrack to YouTube, but they also don't want to turn that removed music into lost media, so they had a policy of not taking down "music archivists" that only uploaded the removed content.

One of the YouTubers that got taken down for reuploading live Destiny 2 music got pissed about it and started filing fraudulent DMCA takedowns in Bungie's name to music archivists. Bungie tried to get in contact with YouTube to have the fraudulent takedowns removed, but it took over a week of PR damage to everyone involved (and, if I remember, actually suing the idiot kid that did this) before YouTube would restore the videos.

If there is one thing that is badly drafted (and not just irritating) about the current DMCA 512 system, it's that there is no procedure for third-party counter-claimants to challenge fraudulent or mistaken claims. However, the current mechanisms of copyright make that impossible to provide. There is no database of who-owns-what and who-licensed-what; rights owners do not want such a database to exist; and it is entirely possible for multiple parties to have standing to sue the same person for the same act of infringement on the same work. Under regular copyright law, if Nintendo wants to sue you for, say, using the officially-licensed Mario DLC in your Minecraft streams, Microsoft can't intervene and stop them on the basis that they own Minecraft. How, exactly, should YouTube proceed if they have two parties swearing under oath conflicting information, and not obeying the right one puts you on the hook for billions of dollars in copyright liabilities? The current system is designed to make it easy to cheaply operate social media, not to actually be fair to its users or to stop online censorship.

[0] Reasons for this inconvenience can include:

- The transaction cost of negotiating a watertight contract for a very small deal. Generally speaking you don't want to make deals with understandable / 'plain language' licensing terms for the same reason why web browsers don't have an API to load unsigned arbitrary kernel modules from third-party servers.

- The licensing in question being contrary to exclusive licensing arrangements with other companies - though exclusive licensing contracts can also mandate the licensor or licensee enforce each other's rights to prevent this sort of thing

[1] In general, common law mechanisms like fair use create an incentive to sue, which is a very bad thing for people who don't like getting sued.

[2] This is a terrible policy, but the policies of console manufacturers require you to ship games as packages, so you couldn't just stream in assets as needed.

Re: Fake Nintendo lawyer is scaring YouTubers, and its not clear YouTube can stop it

#124
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, just enforce the DMCA. Youtube has setup this fake DMCA system where they are acting like they enforcing DMCA but not actually. DMCA has protection for creators. You can say "Copyright holder is wrong, put my content back up and I'll see them in court." and "They did this maliciously, I'll see them in court." However, YouTube fake DMCA system is using the provision of "We don't have to host any content we don't w…

Is YouTube playing a bit loose with the DMCA's requirements here? * YouTube has no liability for incorrect take-downs (17 USC § 512 (g) (1)) * That limitation on liability only exists if they restore access to the disabled material within 10-14 business days of receipt of a counter-notice (17 USC § 512 (g) (2) (C)) https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/512 YouTube doesn't have to host any content they don't want…

They have to comply with DMCA. However, YouTube commonly strikes stuff without DMCA claims or when they get DMCA claim, they remove the video and will not give video owner a chance to counter claim. They will just say "Yea, we got DMCA but now we are exercising our provision to refuse to host anything we don't want to so video is never going back up."

Re: Fake Nintendo lawyer is scaring YouTubers, and its not clear YouTube can stop it

#126
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. Part of the reason why it's hard to start a business is having to deal with unfair bullshit. Youtube streamlines enough of the process to get people started relatively easily, but they get a lot of shit from these same creators for not doing everything for them.

Because all creators have the means and resources to hire a lawyer to fight forces much more powerful and wealthier than they are. This is blaming the victim.

Welcome to being a business owner. Nobody is going to protect your business more than yourself. A tenant refuses to pay rent and eviction takes a year? Too bad. Next time, do a better job of screening for risky tenants.

The problem with the victim first mentality is that it causes you to underestimate how much agency people actually have (e.g. being unaware of how excessive tenant protections decrease the supply of housing available to low-income earners).

Re: Fake Nintendo lawyer is scaring YouTubers, and its not clear YouTube can stop it

#127

I worry about let's plays (especially let's plays without commentary). They pretty clearly exist in a "yes, this is copyright infringement but yes, they are generally considered positive for a game" space. The moment some game creator decides to test this will get very interesting. Not good interesting.

Most game studios these days - including Nintendo - explicitly provide guidance and licensing terms for content creators. You can for example check out https://www.nintendo.co.jp/networkservice_guideline/en/index...

> As long as you follow some basic rules, we will not object to your use of gameplay footage and/or screenshots captured from games for which Nintendo owns the copyright ("Nintendo Game Content") in the content you create for appropriate video and image sharing sites. To help guide you, we prepared the following guidelines: [...]

The legal gray area definitely still exists for many of the smaller/indie game studios, but this kind of licensing is more common than not today.

Re: Fake Nintendo lawyer is scaring YouTubers, and its not clear YouTube can stop it

#128
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then hire a lawyer & sue, you have to enforce your rights.

Google shields the false-DMCA complainers and will absolutely not reveal their identities.

Google has to given a court order. Or is that unachievable?

Re: Fake Nintendo lawyer is scaring YouTubers, and its not clear YouTube can stop it

#129
post #40

It is perfectly clear that YouTube can stop it. As the article points out, we know there are things YouTube can do because those are the very same things The Verge asked about and YouTube refused to answer. The DMCA is broken, yes, but YouTube has made it worse with their kind-of-but-not-actually-DMCA counter-claim process. If they really wanted to solve it, here's an idea: if you get a takedown notice you also get a…

Youtube already has that system. I had to go through the process due to a similar situation with someone falsely content ID'ing my video. In that case it was someone uploading music they didn't own to some online music distribution service. Basically the way it works is after you dispute the content ID claim and whoever filed it still says the content is theirs, you can escalate the dispute to an actual DMCA countern…

I went through a situation similar to yours, and encountered an additional discouraging factor: YouTube seemed to threaten to take down my channel entirely if my appeal was to be rejected. There was also no real option for "the person making the Content ID claim obviously doesn't own the copyright to the work in question" (in this case, the famous "yeah! woo!" a.k.a. "think break" sample; the Content ID match was from what seemed to be a remix of "It Takes Two"), so I was at the mercy of whatever opaque process YouTube deemed fit to review my case - and was a bit spooked when it came to potentially losing my whole channel (and who knows what impact that'd have on my broader Google account).

Thankfully, I was able to find the contact info for the Content ID provider in question - and within a day of emailing them they pulled the Content ID claim, noting that the customer of theirs who uploaded that think-break-containing song did so in violation of the company's ToS (which specifically forbids uploading music containing common samples like that for this exact reason). It ended up being a happy ending, but it still left a sour taste in my mouth w.r.t. YouTube's policies and practices when it comes to Content ID and copyright claims in general.

Re: Fake Nintendo lawyer is scaring YouTubers, and its not clear YouTube can stop it

#130
post #40

It is perfectly clear that YouTube can stop it. As the article points out, we know there are things YouTube can do because those are the very same things The Verge asked about and YouTube refused to answer. The DMCA is broken, yes, but YouTube has made it worse with their kind-of-but-not-actually-DMCA counter-claim process. If they really wanted to solve it, here's an idea: if you get a takedown notice you also get a…

Youtube already has that system. I had to go through the process due to a similar situation with someone falsely content ID'ing my video. In that case it was someone uploading music they didn't own to some online music distribution service. Basically the way it works is after you dispute the content ID claim and whoever filed it still says the content is theirs, you can escalate the dispute to an actual DMCA countern…

> the DMCA counternotice process requires the person filing the counternotice to provide their full name and address so they can be served if the rightsholder decides to sue them.

It's even worse than that: the DMCA counternotice also requires the person filing the counternotice to agree to the jurisdiction of the USA courts, even if they live somewhere else. I think many people would be reluctant to take that additional legal risk.

Post reply on HN