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Mirror bacteria research poses significant risks, scientists warn

the-scientist.com

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Re: Mirror bacteria research poses significant risks, scientists warn

#121

Post by jefftk »

roenxi wrote: post #109

Doesn't sound very scary on the face of it. Apparently [0] the problem with Thalidomide was that the chirality could spontaneously reverse, so that sort of thing must happen frequently in nature. If bacteria haven't figured out how to use mirroring under evolutionary pressure it probably doesn't actually have any advantages over following the herd. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homochirality#In_biology

> that sort of thing must happen frequently in nature

Individual chiral molecules can happen naturally, sure, but not entire organisms. From the report: In a mirror bacterium, all of the chiral molecules of existing bacteria—proteins, nucleic acids, and metabolites—are replaced by their mirror images.

In the fitness landscape there is an absolutely enormous gulf between standard and mirror bacteria, large enough that no amount of incremental evolutionary pressure could flip the ~billion chiral bonds in a given bacterium simultaneously.

Re: Mirror bacteria research poses significant risks, scientists warn

#122

Post by toss1 »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #90
exe34 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why wouldn't they make it into a targeted weapon? Us humans turn everything else into a weapon.

We are talking about an all-infecting pandemic. You can certainly weaponize it, if you think global collapse sounds fun. What you can't do is target it.

If you and only you (and maybe some allies) also make an antidote or vaccine, it is targeted at everyone who doesn't. And that is a huge blackmail opportunity.

OFC, if any leader worth their salt will respond with "Hell NO, if you threaten us again with that, or we find any sign it is released, we'll nule everything in your land and anywhere it is found. Even if a vaccine/antidote works for humans, destroying the animal & plant populations would just result in the surving humans to die slower of starvation.

Thinking about this for a few seconds, it is really pointless, and maybe one of the most serious examples of "Just because you can do it, think hard about whether you should do it". The answer is Fck NO. (And I'm almost always in favor of tech advances.)

Re: Mirror bacteria research poses significant risks, scientists warn

#123

Post by aydyn »

I think it is reasonable to assume that the immune system would have to work harder against mirror pathogens. Straight toxicity might be another important consideration.

On the other hands mirror amino acids already exist in nature, so I find the argument that a mirror bacteria would rampage the ecosystem unchecked sensationalist. Click-bait even. More likely than not, the mirror bacteria itself would be heavily outcompeted in the wild.

Re: Mirror bacteria research poses significant risks, scientists warn

#124

Post by notfed »

aydyn wrote: post #123

I think it is reasonable to assume that the immune system would have to work harder against mirror pathogens. Straight toxicity might be another important consideration. On the other hands mirror amino acids already exist in nature, so I find the argument that a mirror bacteria would rampage the ecosystem unchecked sensationalist. Click-bait even. More likely than not, the mirror bacteria itself would be heavily outc…

Agreed that modelling it as a "pathogen" is missing the mark.

But predatorless photosynthetic self-replicating gray goo that grows exponentially across the planet, resulting in a drastic change in CO2 and oxygen levels across the globe? Wouldn't be the first time. [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Oxidation_Event

Re: Mirror bacteria research poses significant risks, scientists warn

#125

Post by aydyn »

notfed wrote: post #120
roenxi wrote: post #109

Doesn't sound very scary on the face of it. Apparently [0] the problem with Thalidomide was that the chirality could spontaneously reverse, so that sort of thing must happen frequently in nature. If bacteria haven't figured out how to use mirroring under evolutionary pressure it probably doesn't actually have any advantages over following the herd. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homochirality#In_biology

I think the ostensibly scary subject here is mirror DNA or RNA , not anything-that-doesn't-self-replicate. > If bacteria haven't figured out how to use mirroring It's unclear bacteria have ever "attempted" it. The synthesis of DNA is incredibly intricate and complex, and the set of proteins that do it are believed only to have ever evolved once. In order for a bacteria to have "attempted" this, it would have to evolv…

What's scary about mirrored DNA? DNA is information store proteins are actuators.

> would have to evolve an entirely new set of proteins from scratch.

Mirrored amino acids already exist in some organisms.

Re: Mirror bacteria research poses significant risks, scientists warn

#126

Post by aydyn »

notfed wrote: post #124
aydyn wrote: post #123

I think it is reasonable to assume that the immune system would have to work harder against mirror pathogens. Straight toxicity might be another important consideration. On the other hands mirror amino acids already exist in nature, so I find the argument that a mirror bacteria would rampage the ecosystem unchecked sensationalist. Click-bait even. More likely than not, the mirror bacteria itself would be heavily outc…

Agreed that modelling it as a "pathogen" is missing the mark. But predatorless photosynthetic self-replicating gray goo that grows exponentially across the planet, resulting in a drastic change in CO2 and oxygen levels across the globe? Wouldn't be the first time. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Oxidation_Event

The difference is there is competition now.

Re: Mirror bacteria research poses significant risks, scientists warn

#127

Post by cyberax »

sitkack wrote: post #105
tw04 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do we really "accept" microplastics? It seems to me most scientists in the field are terrified of microplastics, while simultaneously acknowledging it's a problem that we almost assuredly can't realistically solve on any reasonable timescale. I'm confident if we had seen microplastics coming when we first started using plastics, science at least would have tried to prevent their use becoming as widespread as it has.

Humanity knew very well that lead and mercury were highly toxic and yet only recently are they being phased out in widespread use. The Man Who Accidentally Killed The Most People In History https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sm1qxqdRyY Hundreds of millions of pounds of Glyphosate is spread across the entire globe. Scientists don't have much say in these things.

> Hundreds of millions of pounds of Glyphosate is spread across the entire globe.

And none of it is harmful to humans.

Re: Mirror bacteria research poses significant risks, scientists warn

#128

Post by notfed »

aydyn wrote: post #125
notfed wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the ostensibly scary subject here is mirror DNA or RNA , not anything-that-doesn't-self-replicate. > If bacteria haven't figured out how to use mirroring It's unclear bacteria have ever "attempted" it. The synthesis of DNA is incredibly intricate and complex, and the set of proteins that do it are believed only to have ever evolved once. In order for a bacteria to have "attempted" this, it would have to evolv…

What's scary about mirrored DNA? DNA is information store proteins are actuators. > would have to evolve an entirely new set of proteins from scratch. Mirrored amino acids already exist in some organisms.

> What's scary about mirrored DNA

Exponential growth of a self-replicating cell with zero predators.

> Mirrored amino acids already exist in some organisms.

You can have an entire planet full of mirror amino acids if you want; that's not the hard part. The hard part is evolving the entire set of mirror transcription proteins.

Re: Mirror bacteria research poses significant risks, scientists warn

#129

Post by Filligree »

notfed wrote: post #120
roenxi wrote: post #109

Doesn't sound very scary on the face of it. Apparently [0] the problem with Thalidomide was that the chirality could spontaneously reverse, so that sort of thing must happen frequently in nature. If bacteria haven't figured out how to use mirroring under evolutionary pressure it probably doesn't actually have any advantages over following the herd. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homochirality#In_biology

I think the ostensibly scary subject here is mirror DNA or RNA , not anything-that-doesn't-self-replicate. > If bacteria haven't figured out how to use mirroring It's unclear bacteria have ever "attempted" it. The synthesis of DNA is incredibly intricate and complex, and the set of proteins that do it are believed only to have ever evolved once. In order for a bacteria to have "attempted" this, it would have to evolv…

> self-replicating photosynthetic plastic

Cellulose? It did cause quite the stir, I'll grant you.

Re: Mirror bacteria research poses significant risks, scientists warn

#130

Post by aeternum »

scotty79 wrote: post #23

How much achiral food would be available for these bacteria anyways in nature? They'd have to compete for it with all other life.

Seems like some kind of achiral algae would actually be the most dangerous.

People forget that blue-green algae caused a global climate apocalypse, polluted the oceans and atmosphere with deadly oxygen, caused all exposed iron to rust massively changing ocean chemistry, and threw the entire globe into an ice-age that lasted 300 million years.

I wonder how we would stop something like that. It'd be like the algae bloom from hell. Plankton likely wouldn't be very successful in attempting to eat it.

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