Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths • Hacker News Board

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#121

Post by sprice » Thu, Dec 12, 2024, 7:22 PM UTC

snakeyjake wrote: post #26

In an ideal world 100% of all deaths would be by euthanasia. Instead there are accidents, which kill prematurely. Homicides, which steal life. And diseases, which cripple and degrade. I've watched three of my four grandparents suffocate to death as their organs failed, blasted out of their minds on morphine, nothing more than a collection of organs with a slowly stopping metabolism. Two of them wanted to end it, but…

I share this optimistic take.

I'm Canadian and when I see these stats, and see that they are rising, I get the sense that there is a greater number of people able to experience a good death.

I'm old enough to have experienced a reasonable amount of death and suffering caused by aging.

A grandmother I wasn't particularly close to, but who when I asked "How are you" on the phone, would reply "I wish I was dead". Great Aunts and Uncles who experienced Alzheimers, Parkinsons, and dementia.

And a cousin who just recently chose MAID after given a terminal cancer diagnosis. I applaud her courage and bravery. My nine year old nephew was able to pass along a message to her. "Have a good death".

Far too many people don't have a good death. More people should have the option available to them.

It's possible to balance both the value and importance of MAID with the need to ensure the system is not being abused and is working well.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#122

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Dec 12, 2024, 7:22 PM UTC

abeppu wrote: post #108

Note: the title should be updated. The BBC article title now says "Assisted dying" not "euthanasia". Often, the distinction hinges on whether the patient or a medical practitioner administers a substance that brings about death. The Canadian policy actually provides for both, but as I understand it the stats being cited in the article combine both, so only a subset of the tally are "euthanasia" deaths.

[deleted]

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#123

Post by thedman9052 » Thu, Dec 12, 2024, 7:24 PM UTC

kspacewalk2 wrote: post #109

tivert wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Worrying parallel: will euthanasia become another "solution" for those who can't afford proper care and treatment? Moving homeless people to warmer cities and offering euthanasia to those who can't afford treatment both avoid fixing the underlying problems. Almost certainly. IIRC, in Canada there have already been cases where people got euthanasia mainly because their disability payments were insufficient.

[flagged]

This is the last line of the linked article:

"Canadian news outlets have also reported on cases where people with disabilities have considered assisted dying due to lack of housing or disability benefits."

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#124

Post by gravitronic » Thu, Dec 12, 2024, 7:24 PM UTC

zer8k wrote: post #112

gnfargbl wrote: post #41

During the recent debate around the Assisted Dying Bill in the UK, I listened to a radio phone-in in which a palliative care doctor explained that it wasn't possible to relieve all suffering for all patients. They relayed an example of a person who had spent their last days vomiting fully-formed faeces. If we can prevent five, ten or perhaps twenty percent of people having gruesome deaths, then not doing so feels lik…

This is an appeal to emotion. While people should have autonomy over their lives we should not be legalizing assisting them. This is a path that is well-trodden. Many dictatorships have "mercifully euthanized" various sectors of people. It always starts out as the disabled, cancer-stricken, or unviable. Then it becomes a simple way to get rid of the people deemed to be a burden. Suddenly being depressed is a good way…

slippery slope fallacy that giving people control of their own deaths will turn into the state euthanized anybody against their will

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#125

Post by resoluteteeth » Thu, Dec 12, 2024, 7:26 PM UTC

mensetmanusman wrote: post #118

afh1 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no "we". There are people and their bodies and their wishes. And authoritarians who want a say on it. Doesn't matter if nice sounding words like law and democracy are used to describe the tyranny.

Authoritarians that want to force doctors to provide death as a service?

There are concerns about assisted suicide being pushed on marginalized people who don't have terminal illnesses in Canada. I don't know if that is being driven by "authoritarians" but implying that the issue is just doctors providing death as a service (i.e. to people who are specifically requesting it unprompted) may not be completely accurate.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#126

Post by twoodfin » Thu, Dec 12, 2024, 7:27 PM UTC

rich_sasha wrote: post #40

dathos wrote: post #30

My grandma always told me when she couldn’t go on her walks anymore she didn’t consider life worth living. When she got dementia she was placed in a closed hospice, to “protect her”. Now she only walks when I visit, and I only see a shell of the woman she was. Anecdotal of course, but why do people think it’s an ethics question when society is individualistic as can be? There is no choice in being born, why don’t we…

To my mind the main obstacle is kind of orthogonal: how do you protect the people who don't want to go, being pressured or manipulated. I agree that if someone is really, independently and committedly deciding to go, you shouldn't stop them. But how do you express that test in a bureaucratic, legalistic framework? In a friend's family, there was a big rift as one family member in direct line of inheritance was accuse…

What you’re hitting on is the inescapable truth that there are problems government institutions can’t solve.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#127

Post by kspacewalk2 » Thu, Dec 12, 2024, 7:27 PM UTC

thedman9052 wrote: post #123

kspacewalk2 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

This is the last line of the linked article: "Canadian news outlets have also reported on cases where people with disabilities have considered assisted dying due to lack of housing or disability benefits."

Okay, they have considered assisted dying. People consider things all the time. That's a very far cry from getting anywhere close to approved for assisted dying.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#128

Post by DennisP » Thu, Dec 12, 2024, 7:29 PM UTC

d1sxeyes wrote: post #43

cowsandmilk wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience with advanced cancer is that it is not. I routinely see people from the UK and Canada raising funds for legitimate treatments my insurance will cover because their governments won’t. To be fair, those treatments are paid for by the government in Nordic countries and France, so it isn’t universal that governments fail their sickest when treatments get expensive.

There is ultimately a monetary value of extended life. In single payer systems, that’s determined by a body whose responsibility is to provide the most effective healthcare to all its citizens given a limited budget. In the US, the monetary value of extending your life is proportional to the amount of money you spend on your health insurance (and appropriate actuarial tables). Both systems have flaws.

It's not "both" systems, it's at least four. Canada is private doctors, public insurance. In the UK, the public system includes the doctors as well. France is not single-payer but has a system somewhat similar to the ACA, with private but nonprofit insurance, an effective mandate, a national price list for health services, and a prohibition of claim denials for anything on the list.

A great book comparing eight national systems in The Healing of America by T.R. Reid. It references stats showing the French-style systems get the highest quality results, with reasonable cost. Japan and Germany have similar systems.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#129

Post by nradov » Thu, Dec 12, 2024, 7:30 PM UTC

amatecha wrote: post #35

dathos wrote: post #30

My grandma always told me when she couldn’t go on her walks anymore she didn’t consider life worth living. When she got dementia she was placed in a closed hospice, to “protect her”. Now she only walks when I visit, and I only see a shell of the woman she was. Anecdotal of course, but why do people think it’s an ethics question when society is individualistic as can be? There is no choice in being born, why don’t we…

Yeah, I knew someone who opted to have their dementia-suffering parent live with them until the end. That was tough, but... surely better than being left alone in a hospice/etc. as you mention. Unfortunately, yeah, you'll see the person just erode and ... it's really brutal as hell, ultra sad. Eventually the person is not even capable of consenting to euthanasia (nor any other medical procedure). Definitely something…

Caring for dementia patients at home is seldom better unless the family has the resources for 24×7 care. I know from personal experience that dementia patients will wake up in the middle of the night to wander out into the street or accidentally start kitchen fires. And if the family tries to do it all themselves it takes an enormous unsustainable toll. At some point everyone is better off putting the patient in a professionally staffed facility. Of course the prices for those create other challenges.

Re: Assisted dying now accounts for one in 20 Canada deaths

#130

Post by stronglikedan » Thu, Dec 12, 2024, 7:30 PM UTC

dathos wrote: post #30

My grandma always told me when she couldn’t go on her walks anymore she didn’t consider life worth living. When she got dementia she was placed in a closed hospice, to “protect her”. Now she only walks when I visit, and I only see a shell of the woman she was. Anecdotal of course, but why do people think it’s an ethics question when society is individualistic as can be? There is no choice in being born, why don’t we…

> why don’t we get a choice in when we leave?

Because dead folks don't pay taxes.