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Performance improvement plans are on the rise

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Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#121

Post by mh- »

FireBeyond wrote: post #47
jghn wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I too was put on a PIP early in my career, and worked my way out of it. It was fine. That said, I agree with the general sentiment that much more often than not the employer is not acting in good faith. Over the decades I've seen way too many colleagues get put on a PIP, I tell them to work hard because it can get better, and then they get let go anyways. Not sure what I'd do today if it happened to me. Probably a bi…

Worked as a PM at a well known tech company, great relationship with my director. He leaves, new director comes in and within three months I'm on a PIP. I'm given a list of work products to create for a new offering that has been discussed, which on the face of it are entirely reasonable, and the standard 30 days. 100% ghosted by my Director. Weekly 1:1s? He no-shows 2 of them. Near zero input. In "fairness", I knew…

You should probably know that individuals can disable[1] showing up in documents' view histories. I've had this option set for as long as I can remember.

1: https://support.google.com/docs/answer/7378739 (ctrl-f "limit")

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#122

Post by jaimebuelta »

I see a lot of pro/con discussion about PIPs in the comments, and wonder how much is a US/Other places thing.

I think that the “believe in the PIP process” is a very typical US thing, driven in part by their labor laws, that is culturally very different in other places, I’ll say EU because it’s what I know best and that is culturally much more adverse to firing

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#123

Post by benreesman »

icedchai wrote: post #44
deadbabe wrote: post #11

I don’t understand why you would PIP a person and keep them waffling around for months on end collecting paychecks when you can just severance them out and pay less in time and money?

You are probably right... in most cases. Companies have lawyers and those lawyers are very risk adverse. The PIP is basically a period of employment where the company collects evidence on your (lack off) performance. This evidence can be shown as justification for firing, in the unlikely even it is needed. PIP = "Paid Interview Period" I've never seen anyone recover from a PIP.

I’ve run several PIPs and haven’t lost anyone. This was in collaboration with a really good HRBP though.

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#124

Post by sunshowers »

tetromino_ wrote: post #119
sunshowers wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most of the time, so-called underperformance is caused by the environment, not the individual. If a company cares about bringing the best out of individuals it would fix the environment. (There are certainly some individuals that end up being a negative to the team, disrupting more than contributing, and a small minority of PIPs are justified in that sense. But most PIPs I've seen are handed out to hardworkin…

I have had periods in my career when I performed poorly, and in virtually all cases the cause had nothing whatsoever to do with the job environment or management. (The real causes included depression and poor coping mechanisms for it, a toxic relationship, and the birth of a child.)

If an employee who has a good track record is going through a period of personal or family-related issues, the employer should support them through that (and not just via FMLA). Not just morally, but also for long-term organizational health. This too is part of the work environment.

Are we building something for the next 6-12 months, or are we aiming to build a monument that will outlast our careers? Sometimes the answer really is the former, but it has very serious costs that are often unaccounted for.

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#125

Post by justahuman74 »

asdff wrote: post #74
arresin wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you sue or something in that situation?

For what? You can be fired whenever in most jobs. Most you can do is tell the story on linkedin and make the manager look like an ass. No point in maintaining bridges that go straight to the dump.

May depends on if the company tries to stop unemployment insurance kicking in

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#126

Post by firesteelrain »

ambicapter wrote: post #101
firesteelrain wrote: post #76

From reading the comments, people must work at places who use a lot of PIPs. It is an actual documented process at my large employer but I know if anyone got put on one then they would freak out. Probably go nuclear rather than improve. Managers are afraid to put people on them.

Sounds like a very emotionally-stable place to work lol.

I don’t think it’s good for mental health for a manager or employee to be vascillating between PIPs and not PIP. We still measure performance and do coaching. We just don’t put people under threat of firing which is what these PIPs aim to do.

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#127

Post by justahuman74 »

tyingq wrote: post #40

>PIPs are intended to bring consistency and fairness to the way employees are judged and managed. That's mostly bullshit. The real purpose of a PIP is just to bolster documentation on the employer side to fend off any wrongful termination lawsuits. It probably has a side effect of looking more consistent, but that isn't the purpose. One thing that does favor the employee is that legal and HR sometimes get carried awa…

It also help quell fears from other employees about their own job.

"There was a process, EmployeeA didn't improve." rather than "EmployeeA was suddenly terminated yesterday"

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#128

Post by kimixa »

jghn wrote: post #39
delecti wrote: post #29

I got put on a PIP at Amazon, and even at the time I thought it was a reasonable criticism. I then worked hard, graduated out of the PIP, and stayed there a few more years. (I also opted-in to a second PIP (with my manager's knowledge and assistance) when I was leaving so I could get severance, but I don't really count that) One of my current mentees got put on a PIP a couple years ago, and she likewise has significa…

I too was put on a PIP early in my career, and worked my way out of it. It was fine. That said, I agree with the general sentiment that much more often than not the employer is not acting in good faith. Over the decades I've seen way too many colleagues get put on a PIP, I tell them to work hard because it can get better, and then they get let go anyways. Not sure what I'd do today if it happened to me. Probably a bi…

PIP and similar things also get "misused" with other anti-management techniques like stack ranking.

Someone I know got put on a PIP solely because the dictates from Upper Management said that annual review scores must have a certain distribution and average per team - and that naturally means someone it at the bottom. And the dictated numbers means that people with lower scores must be put on a PIP. It happened to be the newest, least experienced member of our team, and the PIP "plan" itself (as written by the team lead) was effectively "Continue what you're doing", but they were still forced by HR to do it.

They left themselves a year later, and I don't blame them. They just re-introduced all the worst parts of "stack ranking" and firing the "worst" person in the team with more bureaucracy.

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#129

Post by jopsen »

therealdrag0 wrote: post #97
MathMonkeyMan wrote: post #14

> “A lot of the time, they’re done,” Gadea said of underperformers. “They’re burned out, they need a break. And now you’re asking them to work harder.” I've seen that once, most recently. Before that, it was somebody who was trying to get let go on performance grounds, thinking that it would lead to severance (didn't work out). Before that, it was somebody who got put on PIP, but I'm not sure why, and they were perso…

Why just fire them? As you showed they can “just quit” if they don’t want to play ball, and some people want to have the opportunity to play ball.

Also by forcing managers to drag employees through a pip process, you: (a) reduce risk of wrongful termination suits. (b) increase likelihood that an abusive manager is discovered.

I'm sure lots bad managers get away with bad stuff, even when a pip process is in place.

But every bit of documentation produced by a pip could certainly backfire on a bad manager.

Again obviously, not all bad managers will be stopped, not will all bad employees :)

Re: Performance improvement plans are on the rise

#130

Post by jopsen »

therealdrag0 wrote: post #103
deskr wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How on earth can you be a good manager and not realize that saying "your performance is shit, we're going to fire you unless you take this course and we deem you've passed" is totally and utterly soul destroying to a person?

What’s the alternative? Give them a rainbow sticker? It’s business among adults, performance matters. If you can’t meet expectations then it’s not a good fit. That’s part of life.

An informal pip.

You can tell someone they need to improve their performance. You can help them make a plan. And you can help evaluate the result.

Making a plan can certainly help.

You don't need to involve HR inorder to make a plan.

(Not saying that pip isn't a good concept, just that a formal pip is a last resort kind of tool)

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