Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

quantamagazine.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 419 posts

Re: Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

#121

Post by tgv »

gsabo wrote: post #15

I agree with the sentiment of this. I think our obsession with innate mathematical skill and genius is so detrimental to the growth mindset that you need to have in order to learn things. I've been working a lot on my math skills lately (as an adult). A mindset I've had in the past is that "if it's hard, then that means you've hit your ceiling and you're wasting your time." But really, the opposite is true. If it's e…

I cannot agree. It's just "feel-good thinking." "Everybody can do everything." Well, that's simply not true. I'm fairly sure you (yes, you in particular) can't run the 100m in less than 10s, no matter how hard you trained. And the biological underpinning of our capabilities doesn't magically stop at the brain-blood barrier. We all do have different brains.

I've taught math to psychology students, and they just don't get it. I remember the frustration of the section's head when a student asked "what's a square root?" We all know how many of our fellow pupils struggled with maths. I'm not saying they all lacked the capability to learn it, but it can't be the case they all were capable but "it was the teacher's fault". Even then, how do you explain the difference between those who struggled and those who breezed through the material?

Or let's try other topics, e.g. music. Conservatory students study quite hard, but some are better than others, and a select few really shine. "Everyone is capable of playing Rachmaninov"? I don't think so.

So no, unless you've placed the bar for "mathetical skill" pretty low, or can show me proper evidence, I'm not going to believe it. "Everyone is capable of..." reeks of bullshit.

Re: Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

#122

Post by atribecalledqst »

Last year I read How to Solve It and the first half of one of Polya's other books - Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning. I certainly didn't commit them to memory, and I never systematically tried to apply them during self-study, but they do sometimes help give me a pointer in the right direction (i.e. trying to think of auxiliary problems to solve, trying to find a way to make the known & unknown closer together... etc.).

Auxiliary problems are something that always screwed me in college, when we were doing Baby Rudin, if a proof required a lemma or something first I usually couldn't figure out the lemma. Or in general, if I didn't quickly find the 'insight' needed to prove something, I often got frustrated and gave up.

This material seems like it would be good to actually teach in school, just like a general 'how to think and approach mathematical problems'. Feels kinda weird that I had to seek out the material as an adult...

One other thing I got out of the Polya books, was I realized how little I remember about geometry. So many of their examples are geometrical and that made them harder for me to grok. That's something I wish I could revisit.

Re: Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

#123

Post by benreesman »

mr_mitm wrote: post #113
benreesman wrote: post #2

I’m far from being any kind of serious mathematician, but I’ve learned more in the last couple years of taking that seriously as an ambition than in decades of relegating myself to inferiority on it. One of the highly generous mentors who dragged me kicking and screaming into the world of even making an attempt told me: “There are no bad math students. There are only bad math teachers who themselves had bad math teac…

Wouldn't it then follow that all students of the same teachers end up with the same skill level in math? Not sure that's the case.

Cantor gave his life to the Continuum Hypothesis, Hilbert gave much of his life to similar goals.

You’re making an argument somewhat along those lines, but given that I didn’t stipulate a convergence condition your conclusions can be dismissed by me.

If it were a valid argument then we’d need Gödel.

Re: Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

#124

Post by vanderZwan »

sureglymop wrote: post #114

I think for most people the issue is that they never even get to the fun stuff. I remember not really liking math right until university where we had set theory in the first semester, defined the number sets from scratch went on to monoids, groups, rings etc. That "starting from scratch" and defining everything was extremely satisfying!

Yes, I agree! And also that a lot of the fun stuff is hidden behind historically opaque terminology. Although I'm also sympathetic to the fact that writing accessible explanations is a separate and hard to master skill. Once you understand something it can be really hard to step back into the mindset of not understanding it and figuring out an explanation that would make the idea "click".

I think a lot of maths is secretly a lot easier than it appears, but just missing an explanation that makes it easy to get the core idea to build upon.

For example, I've been meaning to write an explorable[0] for explaining positional notation in any integer base (so binary, hexadecimal, etc) in a way that any child who can read clocks should be able to follow. Possibly teaching multiplication along the way.

Conceptually it's quite simple: imagine a counter that looks like an analog clock, but with the digits 0 to 9 and a +1 and -1 button. We can use it to count between zero and nine, but if we add one to nine, we step back to zero. Oh no! Ok, but we can solve this by adding a second counter. Whenever the first counter does a full circle, we increase it by one. A full circle on the first counter is ten steps, so each step on the second counter represents ten steps. But what if the second counter wants to count ten steps? No problem, just add a third! And so on.

So then the natural question is... what if we have fewer digits than 0 to 9? Like 0 to 7? Oh, we get octal numbers. 0 and 1 is binary. Adding more digits using letters from the alphabet?

The core approach is just a very physical representation of base-10 positional, which hopefully it makes it easy to do the counting and follow what is happening. No "advanced" concepts like "base" or "exponentiation" needed, but those are abstractions that are easy to put on top when they get older.

I've asked around with friends who have kids - most of them learn to read clocks somewhere between four and six, and by the time they're eight they can all count to 100. So I would expect that in theory this approach would make the idea of binary and hexadecimal numbers understandable at that age already.

EDIT: funny enough the article also mentions that precisely thanks to positional notation, almost every adult can immediately answer the question "what is one billion minus one".

[0] https://explorabl.es/

Re: Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

#125

Post by ChaitanyaSai »

rnewme wrote: post #112
ChaitanyaSai wrote: post #93

"mathematics is a game of back-and-forth between intuition and logic" I teach/guide Math at our school (we run a small school and currently have kids under age 10) and this is so so true. I just wrote about this. In fact, you can even see this at play in the video of the kids talking https://blog.comini.in/p/what-happens-in-math-class

This was a very tiring blog post for me. And I have a quip about posts that open with questions but close without obvious definite answer, no matter how simple it is.

Tiring because the answer wasn't revealed? That was the whole point :) It's the path, not the summit.

Re: Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

#126

Post by dghughes »

gsabo wrote: post #15

I agree with the sentiment of this. I think our obsession with innate mathematical skill and genius is so detrimental to the growth mindset that you need to have in order to learn things. I've been working a lot on my math skills lately (as an adult). A mindset I've had in the past is that "if it's hard, then that means you've hit your ceiling and you're wasting your time." But really, the opposite is true. If it's e…

I took an online electronics tech course 15 years ago and what got me was my math skills were atrocious. Not shocking since like learning a new language or music use it or lose it is the obvious answer to why I sucked. I spent half my time re-learning math just so I could complete the course.

Re: Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

#128

Post by InDubioProRubio »

junto wrote: post #23
gsabo wrote: post #15

I agree with the sentiment of this. I think our obsession with innate mathematical skill and genius is so detrimental to the growth mindset that you need to have in order to learn things. I've been working a lot on my math skills lately (as an adult). A mindset I've had in the past is that "if it's hard, then that means you've hit your ceiling and you're wasting your time." But really, the opposite is true. If it's e…

> I agree with the sentiment of this. I think our obsession with innate ~~mathematical~~ skill and genius is so detrimental to the growth mindset that you need to have in order to learn things. I strongly believe that the average human being can be exceptional in any niche topic given enough time, dedication and focus. The author of the book has picked out mathematics because that was what he was interested in. The r…

The boostrap skill is the ability to obsess over something. To focus and self-reward on anything is a heaven sent. Good thing we do not medicate that if we are unable to get that energy on the road, that base skill.

Re: Everyone is capable of, and can benefit from, mathematical thinking

#129

Post by ckw »

thefaux wrote: post #17
benreesman wrote: post #2

I’m far from being any kind of serious mathematician, but I’ve learned more in the last couple years of taking that seriously as an ambition than in decades of relegating myself to inferiority on it. One of the highly generous mentors who dragged me kicking and screaming into the world of even making an attempt told me: “There are no bad math students. There are only bad math teachers who themselves had bad math teac…

Sadly, when I was a postdoc, an eminent mathematician I was working under once shared a story that he found amusing that one of his colleagues was once asked a question in the form: "This might be a stupid question, but..." and the response was "There are no stupid questions, only stupid people." Run into too many people like that, who I daresay are common in the field, and it's easy to see how people become dispirit…

That’s a south park quote: https://youtu.be/wWfacULP1o0?si=ddBWXFuQMoxxY-Yu
Post reply on HN