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Oncall shift should be Tuesday to Tuesday

arthur-johnston.com

121–130 of 230 posts

Re: Oncall shift should be Tuesday to Tuesday

#121

I just want to jump in as a minority voice here. In case anybody is reading the other comments and feeling... alienated. I refuse to accept on-call duties, full stop. If a job posting expects it, I don't apply. If a hiring manager says they have it, I do not accept the offer. If management starts talking about maybe implementing it, I protest. If it becomes enacted, I resign. There is absolutely no situation in which…

Nobody is rooting for on-call, but yeah I put up with it because I am a young stupid idiot thirty-something who needs to make a lot of money now so that the rest of my life can be Nice Enough. I’d love to be able to cherry-pick jobs like this too, but I am not there yet.

Not trying to dunk on you, I’m honestly glad you get to do this, it must make your life considerably better.

Re: Oncall shift should be Tuesday to Tuesday

#122
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as the on-call coverage is as specified at the time of hiring, this is just a difference in form of payment . If I receive 100 total units of compensation, I'd way rather get 100 units of base pay (and 0 on-call pay) than 90 units of base pay and 10 units of specific on-call pay. (What if the company eliminates on-call? What if I get injured and my insurance only covers base pay? Severance is usually based on…

How can the on-call coverage be specified at hiring? Can the company guarantee that my team will never shrink or that the page rate won't increase? What will financially encourage my company to stop paging me overnight if there isn't a labor cost to the company every time an on-call incident occurs? > What if I get injured and my insurance only covers base pay? Insurance payouts can be easily based on wages that incl…

>"Severance is a completely optional practice that is based entirely on what the company wants to do. I would argue that severance is more accurately based on "The lowest safe number to pay to this particular employee to make sure their termination does not become a legal risk."

Almost right! I see it as an extension of what I call the basic rules, "I am as nice to you as you are to me", and "I care exactly as much as you do."

That does, in some cases, expand severance a little beyond the cold risk calculation. If the severance is going to someone who helped the company make it, then helping make sure they make it to their next gig is part of the equation.

Not everyone boils it all down that far, but a whole lot of us do!

Which makes your comment solid, and mine a quibble, but one I consider worthy of some discussion.

Re: Oncall shift should be Tuesday to Tuesday

#123
The point about holidays resonates with me. Our setup you get paid extra for being on-call for a public holiday, but given we do Mon-Mon shifts in practice that means two people can't take advantage of a long weekend and only one of them gets extra compensation for it.

Different people deal with being on-call differently but personally I don't do what I normally would when on-call, whether that's long motorbike rides or hiking etc because it's not practical to guarantee cell coverage and also the threat of a page ruins the experience. A "day off" whilst on-call isn't equal to a day off

Re: Oncall shift should be Tuesday to Tuesday

#124

I just want to jump in as a minority voice here. In case anybody is reading the other comments and feeling... alienated. I refuse to accept on-call duties, full stop. If a job posting expects it, I don't apply. If a hiring manager says they have it, I do not accept the offer. If management starts talking about maybe implementing it, I protest. If it becomes enacted, I resign. There is absolutely no situation in which…

I am 40 yrs old. I get paid a shit-ton of money (just around $200K) to do this stupid tech work job. I work 40 hours a week, I get benefits, flex time, plus I work remote.

If I'm getting paged for a legitimate issue that is related to something I built or maintain, then, yes, I am going to respond on-call. Because it's a fucking privilege to get paid this much money to sit on my ass and type into a screen.

If I'm getting paged repeatedly, or for an issue that isn't my responsibility, then I will get pissed off, and yell and scream until I'm no longer on-call (or they fix the issue, whichever comes first). But I am grateful to be able to have this life. I can spend an hour or two after hours to fix my shit that broke.

Re: Oncall shift should be Tuesday to Tuesday

#125

I just want to jump in as a minority voice here. In case anybody is reading the other comments and feeling... alienated. I refuse to accept on-call duties, full stop. If a job posting expects it, I don't apply. If a hiring manager says they have it, I do not accept the offer. If management starts talking about maybe implementing it, I protest. If it becomes enacted, I resign. There is absolutely no situation in which…

You expect to not be responsible for what happens to the software you put into production?

(… and I'd like to avoid distracting arguments that amount to "my company does on-call badly" — yeah, those problems do exist and we should strive to fix them. But if I'm to not categorize the argument here as the baby with the bathwater, then we need something to replace on-call with. Prod goes down on a Saturday afternoon; are you going to tell management "tough cookies" until Monday?)

Re: Oncall shift should be Tuesday to Tuesday

#126
I hate on-call shifts, but if they must exist, I like the way my team handles them. We have split day and night shifts. 7-18 day shift, and 18-07 night shift. All non-work hours compensated with standby at 10% of hourly pay. Any pages outside of work hours earn you an additional 150% in base pay. Each page guarantees a minimum of 3 hours of pay even if you spent only 5 mins on it.

And since in my country, you must gave at least 11 hours between shifts, if you get paged at night, you get PTO for the next 11 hours on top.

Re: Oncall shift should be Tuesday to Tuesday

#127

I just want to jump in as a minority voice here. In case anybody is reading the other comments and feeling... alienated. I refuse to accept on-call duties, full stop. If a job posting expects it, I don't apply. If a hiring manager says they have it, I do not accept the offer. If management starts talking about maybe implementing it, I protest. If it becomes enacted, I resign. There is absolutely no situation in which…

on call is like hiring civil and structural engineers to build you a bridge over a canyon, and then when they show up to do a site inspection you just push them in. eventually maybe you'll be able to cross.

In software, building bug-free software is almost never the goal. There is a constant juggling act of tradeoffs between time, requirements, and tech debt.

Re: Oncall shift should be Tuesday to Tuesday

#128
At a previous employer we had a pair on call for each of: front end, back end, and infra. We had on-call lasting from Monday midday - Friday midday. Handing off to a "weekend on-call" from the same pool of people from Friday midday to Monday midday. Weekend on-call paid 100 per day, weekday on-call paid 50 per day. You were generally expected to take normal time "off" (but still on call) if paged off hours. Many people would still work if it was just a blip (rare).

I thought this was a pretty good system and despite the cycles being shorter, we had enough engineers to fill a rotation pretty well so that at most you were on call once a month, alternating months between weekend and weekday on-call cycles.

I still do not enjoy being forced into on call and wish I could opt-in. We traded weeks a lot but with smaller rotations or really finicky paging its awful. I still have a sinking feeling in my gut when I hear the work phone ringtone from somebody else's phone in public, and murphy's law definitely applies to being on call -- you always get paged the minute after your beer gets delivered at a restaurant.

Re: Oncall shift should be Tuesday to Tuesday

#129

I just want to jump in as a minority voice here. In case anybody is reading the other comments and feeling... alienated. I refuse to accept on-call duties, full stop. If a job posting expects it, I don't apply. If a hiring manager says they have it, I do not accept the offer. If management starts talking about maybe implementing it, I protest. If it becomes enacted, I resign. There is absolutely no situation in which…

You expect to not be responsible for what happens to the software you put into production? (… and I'd like to avoid distracting arguments that amount to "my company does on-call badly" — yeah, those problems do exist and we should strive to fix them. But if I'm to not categorize the argument here as the baby with the bathwater, then we need something to replace on-call with. Prod goes down on a Saturday afternoon; ar…

>> You expect to not be responsible for what happens to the software you put into production?

I'm responsible for the software I put into production from 9 AM to 5 PM for about 200 days a year. At 3 AM, I am responsible for taking care of myself by getting a good night's sleep.

If you need 24 hour coverage, taking into account vacations and weekends, you need 5 or 6 people.

Re: Oncall shift should be Tuesday to Tuesday

#130

I just want to jump in as a minority voice here. In case anybody is reading the other comments and feeling... alienated. I refuse to accept on-call duties, full stop. If a job posting expects it, I don't apply. If a hiring manager says they have it, I do not accept the offer. If management starts talking about maybe implementing it, I protest. If it becomes enacted, I resign. There is absolutely no situation in which…

You expect to not be responsible for what happens to the software you put into production? (… and I'd like to avoid distracting arguments that amount to "my company does on-call badly" — yeah, those problems do exist and we should strive to fix them. But if I'm to not categorize the argument here as the baby with the bathwater, then we need something to replace on-call with. Prod goes down on a Saturday afternoon; ar…

My boss recently started an on-call rotation for us. None of the code I have written is customer facing. If everything I wrote breaks at 5:01pm on Friday, external customers will feel 0 impact if I wait to fix it until I show up again on Monday. Worst case, someone internal has to wait to work on something they’ve probably been putting off for months anyway. There are other things they can work on. If it was a constant problem, I’d get it, but a rare instance can be forgiven when no outside impact is felt.

I am responsible for my code, but we need to be realistic about the impact. Not all outages are created equal.

I used to work nights watching over the hardware, operating systems, and applications running in it. We’d do upgrades and break/fix stuff. Some things were worth waking someone up for, but a lot of things weren’t. We’d do what we could do fix it on our own, but for a non-prod environment, it could wait until morning if we couldn’t do it on our own. This idea seems to be lost on people now. I get that 100% uptime of 100% of the systems would be nice, but not at the expense of your employees sanity.

I haven’t actually been called yet with the new rotation, but any week I’m on-call I’m a bit on edge. In the past I had some pretty horrible on-call experiences that pushed me close to quitting, which I won’t get into, so I’m preparing for the worst. I worked my ass off to get into a position where I didn’t need to be on-call and put in my time working nights so other people could sleep. Being back on-call feels like a demotion.

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