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How Japanese black companies oppress workers (2014)

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Re: How Japanese black companies oppress workers (2014)

#121

Post by matsemann »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #11
infotainment wrote: post #2

> "I can't quit the job. If I say I'm going to quit, I'll be threatened that I will have to pay damages for quitting." Interestingly, this is actually possible under Japanese law/legal precedent. If an employee, for example, decides to put in notice and then half-ass their job until their departure date, a company could actually sue the employee and win. Other Japan-labor-law fun fact: if you are a contract worker, i…

The majority of developed countries have subtle versions of this. I was naive about this before I worked outside the US and saw the practical impact. The chains go both ways and have real downsides. Having seen the perverse incentives this creates and the various ways in which it can be abused, I have come to the conclusion that the American “at-will” employment model is actually a good thing and benefits workers. No…

> Having seen the perverse incentives this creates and the various ways in which it can be abused

Could you list any examples? Because I honestly don't see any way where potentially getting fired for no reason on the spot would be the beneficial option that you claim.

I've btw never heard of anyone where I live getting sued or unable to quit a job.

Re: How Japanese black companies oppress workers (2014)

#122

Post by goykasi »

saagarjha wrote: post #118
goykasi wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is my experience too. In my neighborhood, by 8pm, the streets are crawling with drunk salarymen (and women) stumbling out of izakayas on their way to a snack and/or karaoke -- 5 days per week. They clearly werent working overtime with how often I see them.

So they start work at 12?

I would guess they start around 8 or 9 in the morning.

Re: How Japanese black companies oppress workers (2014)

#123

Post by Cthulhu_ »

bboygravity wrote: post #40
raverbashing wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what every employee of Musk's companies should look forward to That's what their ideal compensation and workload be if their boss would have their way

You have worked for Musk?

Don't need to, he literally demands that in his tweet.

Re: How Japanese black companies oppress workers (2014)

#124

Post by Cthulhu_ »

raverbashing wrote: post #28
Culonavirus wrote: post #21

Funny seeing a post about these as that's what I was recently reminded of when reading this post: https://x.com/DOGE/status/1857076831104434289 ("80+ hours per week" ... what kind of a psycho even writes this down and puts it out there as if it was normal in any way...)

This is what every employee of Musk's companies should look forward to That's what their ideal compensation and workload be if their boss would have their way

The thing is, Musk claims to work that hard himself (or more), but the difference is that he is a direct beneficiary and earns millions per hour. Whereas a regular employee earns X amount per month, that's it. Maybe some scraps in stock market value, but one of Musk's tweets has more of an impact on those than a career of 80 hour work weeks would of any employee.

Re: How Japanese black companies oppress workers (2014)

#125

Post by Cthulhu_ »

waihtis wrote: post #106
k_sze wrote: post #16

Please add [2014]. It's an interesting read, but temporal context is important. The world has been through a lot. Even if we talk only about Japan, there has been - COVID - Tokyo 2020 Olympics - 3 prime ministers leaving their posts - Shinzo Abe getting shot

> Shinzo Abe getting shot Assassinated, you mean.

Assassinated via getting shot, yes.

Re: How Japanese black companies oppress workers (2014)

#126

Post by goykasi »

jesterson wrote: post #95
Daz1 wrote: post #57

this is mostly fantastical nonsense. I go home at 6pm everyday. go outside at 6pm and you will see businesspeople everywhere also on the commute home. also it is nearly impossible to fire anyone in Japan for anything

> I go home at 6pm everyday. go outside at 6pm and you will see businesspeople everywhere also on the commute home. Just because you see something doesn't make it absolute truth. Try go home at 11PM and you will see plenty of salaryman in trains sleeping on each other.

The same could be said about going home at 6pm (except for the sleeping). Take the Oedo line out of Shinjuku or Roppongi between 6 and 8pm and tell me everyone is still at work.

Re: How Japanese black companies oppress workers (2014)

#128

Post by WalterBright »

colinb wrote: post #113
WalterBright wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The asymmetry is an artificial distortion of the market, and like all such distortions, reduces overall productivity.

Asymmetrical relationships are baked into employment. Indeed, that’s the very basis of the idea. Labour laws, unions etc came into existence to change that balance of power. Without them, no paid holiday, no proper weekend, no pension. All of these things reduce productivity. The purpose of our lives is not productivity. (I have no idea what it might be, but that’s a different thread) Look, I lead very comfortable li…

> Asymmetrical relationships are baked into employment.

If you have ever employed people (I have), it'd be clear that isn't true. You have no actual power over them. You cannot make them come to work. You cannot make them do anything at all. They can get up and leave at any moment, and you can do nothing.

You know who can do that? The military. If you don't follow orders, into the brig you go. They can even execute you.

> The purpose of our lives is not productivity.

Productivity gives us the amazing high standard of living we enjoy today.

> most of that history hasn’t been particularly kind to people who weren’t born to wealth

Freedom produced prosperity which changed all that for the better. Freedom is the greatest human invention ever.

An employer is not the parent of the employees. It's a transaction - trading labor for money. Just like you buying donuts at the store. If you buy donuts from them daily, should you be forced to continue buying donuts from them? Of course not.

Have you ever hired a service to mow your lawn? When you're unhappy with them, do you cease the relationship? Or do you now owe them your continuing business?

Re: How Japanese black companies oppress workers (2014)

#129

Post by bouncycastle »

goykasi wrote: post #72
Daz1 wrote: post #57

this is mostly fantastical nonsense. I go home at 6pm everyday. go outside at 6pm and you will see businesspeople everywhere also on the commute home. also it is nearly impossible to fire anyone in Japan for anything

That is my experience too. In my neighborhood, by 8pm, the streets are crawling with drunk salarymen (and women) stumbling out of izakayas on their way to a snack and/or karaoke -- 5 days per week. They clearly werent working overtime with how often I see them.

the nomikai is part of the work, where the social status is being reinforced (pouring drinks while deeply bowing to the boss, getting forced to drink, the speeches, the clapping, etc)

Re: How Japanese black companies oppress workers (2014)

#130

Post by anovikov »

autumnstwilight wrote: post #60
anovikov wrote: post #55

Why don't they just emigrate? Work culture seems to be better just about everywhere and on top of that, salaries in Japan are shit, and anyone with half the Japanese work ethics will be a dream employee in U.S. or let alone Europe which is full of entitled, lazy slackers.

At least in IT, it's not even necessary to emigrate- foreign owned companies offer significantly better salaries and working conditions. The sticking point is English ability. It's genuinely a very difficult thing to learn a second language to the point of being workplace-functional in it, and an additional level of daily stress and mental effort to do everything in your non-native language. The culture here doesn't…

But isn't it kinda mandatory for any IT person to speak usable English, worldwide? Even if super closed societies where language education sucks beyond imagination, like Russia, they mostly do.
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