Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Meta Fined $843M by EU over Marketplace Ads

wsj.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 142 posts

Re: Meta Fined $843M by EU over Marketplace Ads

#121

Post by bko »

sofixa wrote: post #93
bko wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your pictures weren't used to train AI models. This is almost certainly untrue. But if it gives you a piece of mind, so be it. > Facebook can no longer create shadow profiles for people who aren't on it. What impact does Facebook not having a ledger with my name on it have on my life? You still have ads and tracking in Europe, except now with cookie banners. > You can ask any company to tell you all they know about…

> This is almost certainly untrue. But if it gives you a piece of mind, so be it. If it is untrue, they'll get slapped in the face with another multi-billion dollar fine, and have to remove the offending models. > Have you ever done this? Yes, I do this regularly for backups, and have asked for sketchy orgs I've had to use to delete my data. > I don't need anyone telling me what types of devices to buy. I prefer comp…

> Do you also prefer competition and to make up your own mind about unsanitary food? Unsafe cars? Unsafe airliners and airlines? Where would you draw the line of what is acceptable role of the state?

Cables. I draw the line at cables. I think its a reasonable line to draw.

Re: Meta Fined $843M by EU over Marketplace Ads

#122

Post by crazygringo »

dgroshev wrote: post #117
crazygringo wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for explaining. I think I've identified the part in your argument I don't understand: > but they [Facebook] control which ads they are showing, and naturally with Marketplace-only placements Facebook has an advantage over AcmeShop My question is, why do you think Facebook won't simply sell the ad space to the highest bidder, whether it is AcmeShop or a Marketplace seller? Why do you think Facebook is giving an…

> why do you think Facebook won't simply sell the ad space to the highest bidder, whether it is AcmeShop or a Marketplace seller? Depends on which placement you mean. "Boosted listings" in Facebook Marketplace? AcmeShop can't bid on that. In-Marketplace ads like [0]? They are similarly in-Marketplace, I don't think it's technically possible to bid on them. In-feed Marketplace ads like [1]? They are specifically Marke…

Thanks for all the extra information.

I think we've reached the point where it really does hinge on exact details which we don't really know the answers to. And while yes, we are commenting on an article about supposed anti-competitive behavior, the article doesn't actually describe the specifics at all, and courts get things wrong all the time (and overturned on appeal).

I mean, AcmeShop is free to list their items on Marketplace as well and compete with boosted ads in cases [0] and [1], and like you say, "maybe, maybe not" their ads compete on bids for [2] -- I would assume they would if Facebook is maximizing profit.

I don't see any evidence that Facebook is obviously or necessarily abusing its position, but it's not like I could rule it out either, specifically in the case of [2] -- it seems like it depends on the exact ad selection algorithm they use.

In any case, I can't keep the conversation going any further, but it's been very informative having this exchange. It's been a great back-and-forth, so thank you!

Re: Meta Fined $843M by EU over Marketplace Ads

#123

Post by xvector »

tossandthrow wrote: post #103
xvector wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can tell you that a lot of the EU hope the same This is because 99.99% of people in the EU have zero understanding of how heavily reliant they are on American big tech under the hood. Nearly every piece of technology or every running service in the EU relies on it. I guarantee you most EU citizens don't want YouTube, Google Maps, Google Search, everything running on AWS/Azure/GCP, everything reliant on Intel/Nvid…

You are completely right - whenever you sidestep free market principles a nation can get ahead. Just like China constantly do it. This works until it doesn't anymore.

How is overregulation a "free market principle?"

Re: Meta Fined $843M by EU over Marketplace Ads

#124

Post by troad »

jsnell wrote: post #63
ancorevard wrote: post #28

Will future tech companies bother making their products available in the EU? Will it be worth it, or is just too big of a risk with uncertain outcomes?

It's funny that there are two common and opposite narratives in HN comments for EU fines on tech companies. The is to claim that the fines are far too small, and the companies will happily just continue breaking the laws and treat the fines as a cost of doing business. The other is that the fines are so impractically huge that they're going to drive the companies out of the EU entirely. Both narratives are just nonse…

There's very little chance they leave entirely, but there's every chance future products or functionality simply don't roll out in Europe due to regulatory uncertainty. In as far as the goal of the fines is to 'change product behaviour', it's working. Europe is, for the first time in my adult life, being specifically and deliberately excluded from tech roll-outs. Right now that's still nascent, but let's see where we're at in five, ten years.

It will also have a disproportionate impact on small and mid-sized businesses. Apple, Meta, etc. have the lawyers and profit margins to do EU compliance; many smaller companies do not, but were they to trade in Europe, they would be exposed to the same risk of arbitrary fines issued for non-compliance with complex and unclear laws. This sort of thing has a chilling effect. There's nothing particularly commendable in passing deliberately vague laws designed to facilitate the arbitrary enforcement of fines - it's a fraying of the rule of law.

And to the glib sarcas-bro who's about to say 'good riddance', just remember that this is Hacker News. Innovation is good, actually. Smart-watches with medical sensors, AirPods as hearing aids, those things are good, and missing out on future versions of tech like this is not a win.

Re: Meta Fined $843M by EU over Marketplace Ads

#125

Post by xvector »

maronato wrote: post #91
ancorevard wrote: post #28

Will future tech companies bother making their products available in the EU? Will it be worth it, or is just too big of a risk with uncertain outcomes?

Will future pharma companies bother with creating new drugs if they have to get FDA approval? Will engineering companies bother drafting new projects if they have to pass safety inspections? Every other industry thrives despite regulations. It’ll be no different for future tech companies.

If you have ever worked in pharma you know that literally thousands of promising drugs have been left on the table because the regulatory costs/burdens to see the ideas through are simply too high. It is maybe one of the greatest travesties in the sphere of human health.

At this point, only the easiest and most obvious wins are worth pushing through the regulatory gauntlet. Innovation has been strangled. It's not even worth trying something unless you are 110% certain the costs will be recouped and it's worth spending billions to get it approved.

Re: Meta Fined $843M by EU over Marketplace Ads

#126

Post by xvector »

ktosobcy wrote: post #112
diogofranco wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you live in the EU? From where I stand I mostly got cookie banners, can't get to Google maps or flights from Google search, get AI launches 6 months after the rest of the world if at all etc.. Not yet feeling all the consumer benefits

I do live in the EU. 1) cookie banners are because tech giants are giants c-nts that will do anything to drive their point (and they are breaking the law because "reject" is usually hidden); though the UE should push to have it as a browser setting and voila - not nagging 2) there was a push for Google, as a monopolist, to offer option to use different map services but becase it's typical for the bully to abuse it's…

This is a ridiculous take. Of course Google should be allowed to link to Google Maps from their homepage and search. I have never seen this level of adoration for ridiculous overregulation.

This is the reason the EU has stagnated and will continue to stagnate indefinitely. There is simply no culture of getting shit done, it's all about hand wringing.

Re: Meta Fined $843M by EU over Marketplace Ads

#127

Post by xvector »

ktosobcy wrote: post #111
olliebrkr wrote: post #45

It surprises me how many people here are against this decision, and expressing sentiment that this is bad for the EU tech scene. Meta has been fined because they employed tactics to undermine competition and persistently employ anti-competitive tactics. Why is it wrong for the EU to force companies to obey it's laws and act in the best interest of it's inhabitants? The companies being targeted are some of the biggest…

Well... it's because HN community is only driven by VC money and disruptors and have absolutely no morals - just to abuse whatever the heck is possible to abuse so any notion of trying to regulate the "wild wild west" is to them like a total abuse... it's cute and amusing :)

Overregulation ≠ morals

Re: Meta Fined $843M by EU over Marketplace Ads

#128

Post by xvector »

piltdownman wrote: post #76
threeseed wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has nothing to do with consumer protection. And anyway the EU never had specific legislation at the time Marketplace was introduced hence why they are having to use the EEA agreement as the basis for their actions. Which is basically a generic "do nothing bad" clause.

It has everything to do with Consumer protection. Meta tied its online classified ad business to its social network, automatically exposing Facebook users to Marketplace without any question of consent. It then exacerbated this by imposing unfair trading conditions with a terms of service that authorised the company to use ad-related data — generated from competitors who advertise on Facebook or Instagram — to benefi…

> automatically exposing Facebook users to Marketplace without any question of consent.

I simply cannot even comprehend the kind of entity/mind that sees this as an issue. How does the EU even get anything done?

Think of the poor users! "Exposed" to Facebook Marketplace, oh the humanity! How evil of a company to link to their own services on their own website! We must regulate the links!

This ridiculous mentality is why the EU has strangled its tech space to death, why it has missed out on trillions from the mobile era and will miss out on trillions from the AI era, why all of your best engineers come to the US, and why the EU has completely and utterly failed in consumer facing technology.

The EU is more interested in hand wringing and manufactured moral panic than actually getting shit done. Marketplace in Facebook feeds? So what? Like, who gives a shit? The users certainly don't. It works, people like it, ship it, move on. God, what a suffocating bureaucracy.

Re: Meta Fined $843M by EU over Marketplace Ads

#129

Post by piva00 »

ktosobcy wrote: post #110
xvector wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except the change the EU is trying to encourage with this ruling is really absurdly dumb. It's clearly and transparently rent seeking. We are already in a trade war and the only one that refuses to acknowledge it is the US. The US needs to embargo and deprive EU of the essential tech infrastructure they provide it. Just turn it off or brick it one day and leave the EU scrambling to catch up with 20+ years of stagnati…

Please, do it :D > Except the change the EU is trying to encourage with this ruling is really absurdly dumb. It's clearly and transparently rent seeking. No it's not. It's as any other regulation that tries to prevent overusing ones power.

> No it's not. It's as any other regulation that tries to prevent overusing ones power.

That's an alien concept to a lot of Americans, even more the ones who grew up after Reaganomics with the true belief that corporations should be free to do as they please, nowadays it's always veiled under the empty platitude "it will hamper innovation".

Re: Meta Fined $843M by EU over Marketplace Ads

#130

Post by piva00 »

crazygringo wrote: post #97
mdhb wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why don’t you exercise your personal preferences by moving to the US?

You realize Europeans can't just "move to the US"? Like you have to get a work visa or green card which can be extremely difficult. There are a ton of Europeans who would love to move to the US and can't. Are you trying to suggest Europeans shouldn't complain about the EU? Because that seems... backwards.

> Are you trying to suggest Europeans shouldn't complain about the EU? Because that seems... backwards.

I don't think anyone said that, EU citizens complain about the EU all the time. But complaining that the EU should be molded on the shape of the US is... Backwards.

Post reply on HN