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XMPP: The Gem of Instant Messaging

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Re: XMPP: The Gem of Instant Messaging

#121

Post by SamWhited »

tcfhgj wrote: post #83
SamWhited wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(oh yah, FWIW he's done this to me too; shows up and accuses me of being biased against matrix and not disclosing my affiliation with XMPP stuff… meanwhile he controls a company and gets paid by them, I just chose to work on XMPP open source stuff instead of Matrix stuff and don't get paid for it)

Not being paid doesn't mean less biased. To the contrary: I expect a high bias since you choose to spend lots of time on it despite not being paid for it

Or I did my research and made an informed decision which to work on. I didn't start working on one then only decide to dislike the other based on sunk cost fallacy. Matrix already existed when I got into doing XMPP stuff, and I looked into both.

Re: XMPP: The Gem of Instant Messaging

#122

Post by SamWhited »

Arathorn wrote: post #85
SamWhited wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Matrix and XMPP operate in very different ways Matrix is a graph database synchronization protocol, whereas XMPP is event based. Let's use group chats as an example: with Matrix if you join a group chat hosted on another server, the entire history of the chat gets synced to your server. This means it's very resource intensive to scale, but very reliable since you pretty much always have chat history available and if…

Realising the irony of commenting on this given the sibling, but for the sake of accuracy: > with Matrix if you join a group chat hosted on another server, the entire history of the chat gets synced to your server. This is not true. By default most Matrix implementations sync the last 20 messages in a room when a server joins that room, pulling in other messages only on demand if a user back-paginates the room. Room…

Partial graph sync is a thing, yes, but the graph still has to exist on both servers and expand as users request more of it, so the same analysis applies. But fair, maybe I should have pointed out that full sync is the worst case.

Re: XMPP: The Gem of Instant Messaging

#123

Post by SamWhited »

shadowgovt wrote: post #49
ValleZ wrote: post #46

XMPP was not a mobile friendly protocol for a while, had efficiently no security out of the box and lacked simplest things like image or other file transfers.

And nowadays it faces a marketing issue because it's extensible, so none of those problems go away because a solution exists somewhere. "Hey, I want to set up a modern messenger." "Sure! Here's XMPP, the ten extensions you need to enable and configure (problem left as an exercise for the reader), and the seven ports you need to open!" "... Okay? A Matrix node is apparently a drop-in solution; I'm gonna use that." XMP…

What servers don't have good defaults these days, and what clients need any configuration at all beyond the username and password? I don't think this is true.

Also Snikket meets your Docker requirements if you're into containers.

Re: XMPP: The Gem of Instant Messaging

#124

Post by shadowgovt »

SamWhited wrote: post #123
shadowgovt wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And nowadays it faces a marketing issue because it's extensible, so none of those problems go away because a solution exists somewhere. "Hey, I want to set up a modern messenger." "Sure! Here's XMPP, the ten extensions you need to enable and configure (problem left as an exercise for the reader), and the seven ports you need to open!" "... Okay? A Matrix node is apparently a drop-in solution; I'm gonna use that." XMP…

What servers don't have good defaults these days, and what clients need any configuration at all beyond the username and password? I don't think this is true. Also Snikket meets your Docker requirements if you're into containers.

Snikket looks good.

The last time I tried to get jabberd set up on an Ubuntu install, the port-opening and config became a nightmare and induced me to give up. No good signal on why it wasn't working.

Re: XMPP: The Gem of Instant Messaging

#125

Post by singpolyma3 »

WD-42 wrote: post #103
singpolyma3 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were never any major platform with good XMPP support except for Google Talk anyway. So not sure about "one by one".

Facebook? Or was that something else. All I remember is a golden age when between google and Facebook I had like 90% of my non work contacts available to chat with on pidgin. And my work used xmpp internally, it was glorious.

Facebook had a poorly maintained gateway into their chat system which spoke XMPP c2s (no federation). Was pretty much a hack to get people to stop asking for a Linux client until the web app became the only desktop option anyway.

Re: XMPP: The Gem of Instant Messaging

#126

Post by singpolyma3 »

gog wrote: post #102
singpolyma3 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious which apps you've tried and what the deficiencies are you find in them. There are a number of companies in the ecosystem. Most have chosen not to pursue VC money in order to keep things going much longer. While a venture backed company can have success, most flame out eventually in my observation.

Is there an iOS app that supports push messages?

Yes. Snikket, siskin, and monal all make use of push messages (since that's required to work on iOS at all these days)

Re: XMPP: The Gem of Instant Messaging

#127

Post by rkallos »

ptman wrote: post #106
rkallos wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, Grindr's chat hasn't been powered by XMPP since April 2024.

Please elaborate. Why? What is it using now?

They switched to microservices written in Kotlin, resembling the rest of their backend stack. They had an easier time hiring and retaining Kotlin developers than Erlang/Elixir developers.

Re: XMPP: The Gem of Instant Messaging

#128

Post by tcfhgj »

SamWhited wrote: post #121
tcfhgj wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not being paid doesn't mean less biased. To the contrary: I expect a high bias since you choose to spend lots of time on it despite not being paid for it

Or I did my research and made an informed decision which to work on. I didn't start working on one then only decide to dislike the other based on sunk cost fallacy. Matrix already existed when I got into doing XMPP stuff, and I looked into both.

It's not about back then, but about when you write comments

Re: XMPP: The Gem of Instant Messaging

#129

Post by gog »

singpolyma3 wrote: post #126
gog wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there an iOS app that supports push messages?

Yes. Snikket, siskin, and monal all make use of push messages (since that's required to work on iOS at all these days)

It looks like you need server support for that as well (makes sense), to bad Prosody doesn't have it in a released version but you have to build it manually.

Re: XMPP: The Gem of Instant Messaging

#130

Post by MattJ100 »

gog wrote: post #129
singpolyma3 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Snikket, siskin, and monal all make use of push messages (since that's required to work on iOS at all these days)

It looks like you need server support for that as well (makes sense), to bad Prosody doesn't have it in a released version but you have to build it manually.

No need to build anything, it's not a binary or anything like that. Prosody is just a very plugin-oriented project (plugins are written in Lua). For better or worse, we (the Prosody team) have certain standards for inclusion of community modules in the core codebase, and mod_cloud_notify doesn't quite meet them yet.

On Debian and derived systems, you can just 'apt install prosody-modules', and on other systems you can 'prosodyctl install mod_cloud_notify' or otherwise download it directly: https://modules.prosody.im/mod_cloud_notify (no configuration is necessary apart from adding it to the module list in your config).

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