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Pagination widows, or, why I'm embarrassed about my eBook (2023)

clagnut.com

121–130 of 137 posts

Re: Pagination widows, or, why I'm embarrassed about my eBook (2023)

#121
> I set myself some pretty stiff criteria for the ebook – it needed to replicate the design of print edition as far as possible [...]

My hot(?) take as a reader: I want none of this.

Just give me proper semantics and let my reader (while respecting my personal preferences) figure out presentation. I'm quite tired of publishers thinking that they somehow need to "preserve the unique aesthetics" of a paper-based medium, despite that usually working out quite poorly.

Fonts that look great on paper don't necessarily on my eInk, LCD, or OLED display I'm reading the book on, for one thing. Margings/padding are usually a world of pain, and one of the first things I end up doing when opening a new ePub is often to disable all publisher formatting.

While I love the idea of an open format and really don't like the idea of being stuck in Amazon's walled garden, at least they figured that part out in their Kindle ecosystem from the beginning. With ePub, it's been hit and miss.

Re: Pagination widows, or, why I'm embarrassed about my eBook (2023)

#122
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on what kind of book it is. Fiction EPUB all day. Technical books with figures, tables or code listings, PDF!

Exactly! EPUBs are great for novels or anything you just want to read line-by-line

They're really great for anything I want to read on my phone, including technical books.

I'll take a slightly-less-great ePub over a PDF I have to scroll around or use terrible reflow heuristics via some reader any day.

Re: Pagination widows, or, why I'm embarrassed about my eBook (2023)

#123
post #20

Not to mention the ugly/unusable rendering of mathematical formulate in ebooks on my Kindle, which is gatherig dust. Layouting is an art and a craft, and the fact that it's automated by people who lack the specialized knowledge, or for whom it is not a priority (quarter century old bug reports, really?) suggests that in 2025, you should still avoid ebooks if you care about quality and aesthetics. This is a shame beca…

Blame the (metal) compositor unions which back in the day bargained for sinecures where all their members were guaranteed perpetual employment rather than choosing to participate in the digital revolution. Fortunately, some folks did work to preserve the craft and beauty of books --- Dr. Donald Knuth taking a decade off from writing _The Art of Computer Programming_ to create TeX (though initially he thought he'd do…

Fascinating, but as an ebook consumer my standards are quite a bit lower. I’m happy if the relevant figures are on the same page as the text (but that’s important), and the spacing is not absolutely awful.

Re: Pagination widows, or, why I'm embarrassed about my eBook (2023)

#124
post #62
post #55

Another frustrating thing with ebooks is that you can't get them in PDF format any more. So much time is spent making a nicely fomatted hardcopy edition, then the ebook is only available as a terribly auto-converted epub that throws away all the layout and style. Particularly cookbooks, as well as anything technical, I just can't stand how lazy, ugly, and difficult to read the epubs are. All the tooling already exist…

For me, it's the opposite. Whenever i have the choice, i want EPUB, not PDF. The problem with PDFs is that you don't have a device that is the same size as the original page size in most cases.

Another problematic aspect is if one has poor eyesight and wishes to use a larger font size. One ends up having to scroll horizontally for each line of text for single column pages. For two-column pages, one has to scroll back a page after reading the first column.

Sometimes one can use a landscape-oriented display to avoid horizontal scrolling, but even if the same word count fits on the screen I seem to be annoyed by the low line count.

Providing large type and huge type PDFs would not entirely solve this problem as sometimes even one with poor eyesight might prefer a smaller font for scanning/skimming. Having to acquire two PDFs and switch between them based on mode of use seems suboptimal.

Fixed paged presentation has significant advantages for familiar reference material; some people seem to have a spatial memory that makes finding specific content by flipping pages faster than trying several search phrases (with the occasional benefit of serendipity).

Poetry often benefits from not reflowing lines and page breaking within a stanza is often more jarring than within a paragraph of prose. Yet a reader might prefer inferior typography over having to use a magnifying glass or carry a very large display.

One might be able to get some of the advantages of paged media for figures and tables by having header (or footer) pop-up links to such content when it is on the same "page" as the displayed text. This is not as low effort as moving one's eyes, but it might be better than inlined presentation on a small (relative to font size) display.

Even with print, there would be times when breaking the text to fit a figure is more disruptive than having the figure on a separate page. There would also be times when all the relevant figures would not fit on the same page as the related text.

Having a separate booklet of illustrations might make going back and forth between text and illustration easier, similar to having a lexicon or commentary open while reading. However, that also introduces position tracking in another book and other inconveniences.

Even when my vision was better, reading academic papers distributed as PDFs (usually 2-column) on a computer screen was less enjoyable than reading similar material in a reflowable format. Academic papers also do not seem to benefit as much from pagination as other writings.

Re: Pagination widows, or, why I'm embarrassed about my eBook (2023)

#125
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly! EPUBs are great for novels or anything you just want to read line-by-line

They're really great for anything I want to read on my phone, including technical books. I'll take a slightly-less-great ePub over a PDF I have to scroll around or use terrible reflow heuristics via some reader any day.

Really, the point is, why can't we have both? I use and enjoy epubs extensively, but also in many contexts I strongly prefer PDF.

Re: Pagination widows, or, why I'm embarrassed about my eBook (2023)

#126

While everyone here seems to talk about the epub angle to the story, there's also simply the deeper story here, that "the web's" handling of paged media and the CSS paged media specs (to which his epub problem is related) is a never ending shitshow. Not only for epubs, for everybody who actually wants to print to real paper, too, ideally with a working cross browser solution. Mistake is largely not in the specs, but…

I think being able to format a page just for printing, esp. with HTML/CSS itself is a killer feature and is gigantically underestimated.

I understand that printers are Satan incarnate and runs on concentrated sins of cost cutting engineers, and nobody has time to read that 1.5 page article someone wrote by giving proper effort, but scientific articles, books, nice blog posts we want to delve in, etc. are real and regardless on the substance they run on, printers are real things and they are used nevertheless.

The tendency to assume that everyone is running on high end laptops and cutting edge, network connected tablets is making me angry sometimes. Implementing features like this will make many programmers' life easier who need to be able to generate and print reports from their web applications, too.

It's not only about books and shrewd people who want to print a blog post and study/read that on a table or wherever.

Re: Pagination widows, or, why I'm embarrassed about my eBook (2023)

#127
post #125
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're really great for anything I want to read on my phone, including technical books. I'll take a slightly-less-great ePub over a PDF I have to scroll around or use terrible reflow heuristics via some reader any day.

Really, the point is, why can't we have both? I use and enjoy epubs extensively, but also in many contexts I strongly prefer PDF.

Getting a passable PDF from an ePub is probably significantly easier than the reverse, so I'm all for having both, yes! (And please don't charge me twice for the privilege, publishers.)

Re: Pagination widows, or, why I'm embarrassed about my eBook (2023)

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some months ago I wanted to format/print some documents, and given the existing tooling I had I decided to try the html->pdf route. I fully agree is a shitshow. The way things break across pages is hard to fix even when hand-tuning the html itself (not just by working it around with css) to avoid content being cut across margins and pages no matter what. I've found chrome to be "less bad", but still unusable. Column…

I thought book quality started going downhill circa 1990. I am a fan of the old mass market paperbacks. These had a reputation of being low quality books back in the day because they are cheap and not super-durable but I think they are high quality from a Deming point of view because they are made by a process that is highly repeatable. Circa 2000 I thought my 1970s paperbacks were in great shape, but 2010 they were…

plenty of high quality books are being printed in indie RPG community.

Re: Pagination widows, or, why I'm embarrassed about my eBook (2023)

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some months ago I wanted to format/print some documents, and given the existing tooling I had I decided to try the html->pdf route. I fully agree is a shitshow. The way things break across pages is hard to fix even when hand-tuning the html itself (not just by working it around with css) to avoid content being cut across margins and pages no matter what. I've found chrome to be "less bad", but still unusable. Column…

I thought book quality started going downhill circa 1990. I am a fan of the old mass market paperbacks. These had a reputation of being low quality books back in the day because they are cheap and not super-durable but I think they are high quality from a Deming point of view because they are made by a process that is highly repeatable. Circa 2000 I thought my 1970s paperbacks were in great shape, but 2010 they were…

> adhesive tape?

Don't - it yellows too.

Re: Pagination widows, or, why I'm embarrassed about my eBook (2023)

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought book quality started going downhill circa 1990. I am a fan of the old mass market paperbacks. These had a reputation of being low quality books back in the day because they are cheap and not super-durable but I think they are high quality from a Deming point of view because they are made by a process that is highly repeatable. Circa 2000 I thought my 1970s paperbacks were in great shape, but 2010 they were…

> adhesive tape? Don't - it yellows too.

I use thin 2" tape to wrap the corners and the oldest one is probably 10 years old and no yellowing.
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