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Jaywalking legalized in New York City

theguardian.com

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Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#121

Post by jajko »

nobody9999 wrote: post #89
gxonatano wrote: post #87

Let's not forget that jaywalking was essentially created by the automotive industry and its lobbyists, to make life more convenient for drivers. It started in car-heavy places like California, and eventually became a law virtually everywhere in the US, but was never really enforced in New York City, where most people walk or take public transit, rather than drive. If, like most New Yorkers, you walk several kilometer…

>New Yorkers don't have a concept of "jaywalking"; it's just "walking." As a general rule, I watch the cars and not the traffic lights. Mostly because many motorists (and NYC buses are the worst!) often don't pay attention to pedestrians, intersections or traffic lights. In fact, I'm more careful when walking through an intersection than in the middle of the street.

Its just an assumption that all people on the roads are having 100% focus on whole surrounding situation, 100% of the time. If you drive a bit as the only parent in the car with 2+ small kids, you know that ain't true, and yes complex intersections are one of the worst places.

Plus you have literal a-holes who ignore traffic rules on purpose, which in place where I live (Switzerland) is maybe 80% of the cyclists. I've had few near miss (5cm max) as a pedestrian where cyclist with red light zoomed through thick crowd crossing without even slowing down. Bear in mind that >=30kmh hit of pedestrian can easily end up in fatality or permanent disability, when wife worked on urgency in biggest hospital around here, there were some dead pedestrians from such collisions.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#122

Post by frmersdog »

wahern wrote: post #109
metabagel wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, crossing at intersections is much more complex, with traffic typically coming from many more directions than away from intersections.

And yet jaywalking accounts for the majority of pedestrian deaths, despite being a fraction of the number of crossings. Believe it or not, most drivers do look out for pedestrians. Some better than others, but another set of eyeballs is invaluable, especially from the actual car that risks hitting you. Unfortunately, drivers do not expect people to cross in the middle of the street. And they never will, generally spe…

These deaths largely occur on high-speed roadways where people shouldn't be walking, or where the speed should be lower. The issue in both cases is a lack of public transit density. If you're in a dense area with a ton of pedestrians, the speed should be low enough that you CAN react, and there should be transit options that lower the number of car trips. In less dense areas, where automobile speeds are higher, auto and pedestrian traffic should be segregated; again, there should be other transit options that keep pedestrians away from spaces ripe for collisions.

Essentially, build more rail/bus lanes/bike lanes and lower traffic speed. The problem isn't jaywalking and it never was.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#123

Post by rsynnott »

mysterydip wrote: post #76
badgersnake wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's literally how it works in the UK

Population density of London: 15,000 per square mile Population density of Manhattan: 78,000 per square mile (according to wikipedia on both)

So on that basis, jaywalking should be prohibited on Manhattan Island, because it's population density is greater than that of London, which we have for some reason decided is the arbiter, but allowed virtually everywhere else in the US, where the population density is less than London?

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#124

Post by rsynnott »

echoangle wrote: post #26
reedf1 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Granted you've misinterpreted the posters point - but I will respond to your perception of his point (which I agree with). You could easily imagine a world where pedestrians have the right of way on the streets, and cars "request access to the road" in a similar way that pedestrians do. Actually, if this is not easy for you to imagine - it suggests enormous internal bias.

It would kill the utility of cars though, you could never drive faster than maybe 30 miles per hour or you would constantly run people over. Pedestrians are more nimble than cars, so it kind of makes sense that cars have the right of way. As far as I know, large container ships have right of way over small vessels for the same reason.

> you could never drive faster than maybe 30 miles per hour or you would constantly run people over.

Wait, when are you driving faster than that in a city anyway? City roads here are mostly restricted to 30kph; travel times didn't significantly increase when this was imposed a while back.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#125

Post by Attrecomet »

rsynnott wrote: post #115
vasco wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jaywalking is any crossing in a wrong / illegal way, not about intersections specifically. Mostly it's about not using crosswalks, so I don't see how it collides with what Europe does. In Europe you also have differences with some countries where crosswalk lights are as a mandate from God and nobody will cross even at 2am deserted road. And then you have countries where the crosswalk lights are mere decorations.

> In Europe you also have differences with some countries where crosswalk lights are as a mandate from God and nobody will cross even at 2am deserted road I think that's mostly just certain parts of Germany.

It was a fun evening with the guys from Bavaria in Berlin

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#126

Post by amanaplanacanal »

Exoristos wrote: post #107
nobody9999 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Did you read the article? Pedestrians can always cross but they then don't have the right of way and have to yield to traffic. Basically everyone can keep doing what they've been doing all along but police can no longer arrest them for it through selective enforcement. As a lifelong New Yorker, I can tell you that arrest is never an option for any violation of the city's administrative code. Rather it's a fine. And…

How do they fine you without arresting you? Tape a citation to your back as you walk past?

Most people's idea of arrest means taken into custody, rather than the actual meaning of stopped.

If they prevent you from walking away, you are arrested.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#127

Post by amanaplanacanal »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #96
94b45eb4 wrote: post #25

So if you are waiting at an intersection pedestrian crossings and getting impatient you can just move over a bit and cross anyway?

It means pedestrians are always right even when they are wrong. Especially when they are wrong. It means they can do whatever they want whenever they want wherever they want and everybody else on the road is obligated to accomodate them.

If only this were true. Only some people drive, but even drivers become pedestrians as soon as they get out of their car.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#128

Post by toast0 »

ssl-3 wrote: post #118
bragr wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I cross where ever when it is safe and convenient

I do, too. But -- in California -- it remains illegal to do so in sections of roadway that are betwixt two traffic lights, no matter how safe an convenient it is. (We've got very similarly-worded restrictions here in Ohio, too, FWIW.)

If it's illegal but you can't be stopped for it, it might not really be illegal?

Also, there's not that many adjacent controlled intersections. Driveways are intersections, too, and are rarely controlled.

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#129

Post by sigwinch28 »

bragr wrote: post #93

Since they made this change in California last year, I cross where ever when it is safe and convenient. I'm surprised how big of difference it made to the convenience and speed of walking somewhere. No more waiting for 2 different lights just to get to the opposite corner.

>waiting for 2 different lights just to get to the opposite corner.

A solution sometimes seen in London is a “Pedestrian Scramble”, where pedestrians are explicitly given full (and even diagonal) access to a junction with all other traffic stopped.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedestrian_scramble

Re: Jaywalking legalized in New York City

#130

Post by thegrim33 »

The dichotomy is pretty interesting to me, given that most major cities in the country have been running high-publicity programs for the last decade to do everything possible to reduce car-related deaths, especially protecting pedestrians and bicyclists. (Cities like NYC and Seattle call it "vision zero", a vision of zero serious traffic injuries/deaths). They work to separate pedestrians and bicyclists from traffic, slow cars down with "traffic calming measures", lower speed limits, and so on.

Those stated goals seem, to me, to clash with the idea of now making it up to people's discretion to cross roads wherever and whenever they want, rather than at dedicated, marked, predictable, traffic crossings equipped with signal lights that tell cars and pedestrians who has the right of way.

I'm curious in X years if the data will or will not show more pedestrians got hit by cars following this change.

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