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Meta fires staff for 'using free meal vouchers to buy household goods'

theguardian.com

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Re: Meta fires staff for 'using free meal vouchers to buy household goods'

#121

Post by consteval »

echoangle wrote: post #114
consteval wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, if you're looking at from a surface-level view. Using such a surface-level view means I could, instead, buy a meal and choose not to eat it. Because the credit is only for food. But that's worse, right? Okay, then the conclusion is that this basis doesn't work, and you need some leniency. Simply sticking to rules, especially if they're stupid, almost always backfires. We have to do cost analysis. Is it really…

> But that's worse, right? Okay, then the conclusion is that this basis doesn't work, and you need some leniency Not really, having a hole in the rules doesn’t mean the rules should be loosened. I don’t even understand how you came to that conclusion. The rule is „this credit is for you to buy food as a meal“. That means you shouldn’t order stuff to only take home and eat later, and it also means that you shouldn’t o…

That's not what the rule is. The rule is you get X amount of money, maximally, to spend on a meal.

From the employer standpoint it makes absolutely no difference if you got to a cheap place or an expensive place, because the rule is X amount. So you'd be stupid to go to a cheap place.

And the concept of having to eat it is stupid on the surface.

What happens if you get full, and you have to take some home? Are you now fired? No, right? But you broke the rules?

You require some amount of leniency. If you follow rules hard and fast, it will backfire. It also creates perverse incentives. Like I said, I'm incentivized to buy as much food as possible and as expensive as possible.

I agree some of these employees probably did deserve to be fired. I don't think Meta handled it well though, and I do think this ultimately hurts them orders of magnitude more than anyone else. Often, we justify self-destruction because we're right. Nobody really cares how right you are when you hurt yourself.

Re: Meta fires staff for 'using free meal vouchers to buy household goods'

#122

Post by s1artibartfast »

consteval wrote: post #119
s1artibartfast wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theft is a clear line and I wouldnt want to employ someone one who didnt respect. I dont see how Meta has any moral obligation to prevent exploit. They should all have more such policies and monitor them to better weed out thieves. >I can come up with infinite examples where thievery is not only excused, but the most moral choice. Can you explain the moral justification for someone with a 400k salary to steal from th…

> Theft is a clear line Right, and clear lines are reactionary and emotional, in my opinion. > I dont see how Meta has any moral obligation to prevent exploit They don't, companies have no moral obligations to do anything because it's impossible for them to have morals, because they aren't people. Which is why I never give companies the benefit of the doubt - that's reserved for entities capable of morality, in my mi…

>I'm not saying that theft is morally justified in this particular circumstance. What I am saying is that generally it could be.

I was asking about this circumstance. It seemed like you were making the case that in this case it isn't bad, sorry if I was confused, and you agree it is bad.

Re: Meta fires staff for 'using free meal vouchers to buy household goods'

#123

Post by cityofdelusion »

consteval wrote: post #76
xghedrr wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Is it really an abuse? Oh no, he used meal credits to buy toothpaste and tea instead of food” Yes. This is called fraud. Even if you feel mega corp X is bad, defrauding mega corp X is… also bad.

So then it must be a better outcome if you buy the maximum allowed amount of food, 70 dollars, and then throw it away? Better yet, buy that food, attempt to pawn it off, and then buy toothpaste. To me, that feels like a much worse outcome, not a better one. I think this demonstrates you need some leniency in these things. Because pettiness breeds pettiness.

That’s just something bad for another reason. Fraud and wanton waste are both immoral.

Re: Meta fires staff for 'using free meal vouchers to buy household goods'

#124

Post by echoangle »

consteval wrote: post #121
echoangle wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But that's worse, right? Okay, then the conclusion is that this basis doesn't work, and you need some leniency Not really, having a hole in the rules doesn’t mean the rules should be loosened. I don’t even understand how you came to that conclusion. The rule is „this credit is for you to buy food as a meal“. That means you shouldn’t order stuff to only take home and eat later, and it also means that you shouldn’t o…

That's not what the rule is. The rule is you get X amount of money, maximally, to spend on a meal. From the employer standpoint it makes absolutely no difference if you got to a cheap place or an expensive place, because the rule is X amount. So you'd be stupid to go to a cheap place. And the concept of having to eat it is stupid on the surface. What happens if you get full, and you have to take some home? Are you no…

I said:

> The rule is „this credit is for you to buy food as a meal“.

You said:

> That's not what the rule is. The rule is you get X amount of money, maximally, to spend on a meal.

What’s the difference?

You would be stupid to go to a cheap place, so you are free to spend your credit on whatever food you want, as long as it’s your meal. If you don’t finish, you can take the rest, but even going somewhere and ordering stuff just to take home without eating anything is already technically not allowed. I don’t know if you seriously don’t understand the rule or if you’re just trying to argue.

Imagine if someone invited you to dinner and you order 10 plates and tell the waiter that you want to take the excess home. Is that fine because you were invited, so you can order whatever you want? You can’t tell me that you think ordering wine glasses and laundry detergent from your food credit is fine.

Re: Meta fires staff for 'using free meal vouchers to buy household goods'

#125

Post by s1artibartfast »

qgin wrote: post #56

Conditional money is goofy and essentially asking for problems. Either give someone $20 or don’t. Then you don’t have to have an entire investigative department devoted to auditing whether an item has caloric value or not.

It is not money with strings attached. It is permission to buy food on the company account.

You wouldn't say the same thing about a company credit card.

Re: Meta fires staff for 'using free meal vouchers to buy household goods'

#126

Post by s1artibartfast »

r00fus wrote: post #90
Rygian wrote: post #35

Meal money in France is credited (either as vouchers or as a separate credit card-like card) that can only be spent either in restaurants, or to spend in supermarkets. Supermarkets are only allowed to sell a limited list of goods that qualify as meal on that credit, the system is directly integrated in the cash register software.

Yeah, agreed - Meta and other corporations are trying to do what is probably best supported by a government program so obviously they run into limits. But trying anything like that here is "socialism".

How is a government program the best way to for someone earning 400k to procure dinner?

Re: Meta fires staff for 'using free meal vouchers to buy household goods'

#127

Post by s1artibartfast »

dns_snek wrote: post #99
HDThoreaun wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it is. That doesnt mean it isnt also a perk. I am happy that my office has coffee even though it also benefits my employer with the increased productivity. Same with lunch, its a win win for the company and the employee.

I don't think it's a win for the employee if they're getting $100 worth of extra labor out of you in exchange for $25 worth of food. And not just financially, I always thought that these "perks" make it harder to disconnect and relax from work which is likely to take a toll on mental health - I know it would for me.

It isnt an exchange of extra labor for food. They are demanding the work either way for the salary.

Re: Meta fires staff for 'using free meal vouchers to buy household goods'

#128

Post by s1artibartfast »

consteval wrote: post #113
mvdtnz wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The policy is very relevant, in fact it's the only relevant piece of information. You want to prevent stealing? Don't offer your employees stipends. Problem solved, I'll send everyone my invoice. Another way to solve the problem is to fire employees who abuse the perk.

No, this doesn't solve the problem, because: 1. You're bleeding money. Saving a buck or two because you fire someone who bought toothpaste is nothing compared to rehiring and knowledge transfer. 2. You're eroding trust. If I was an innocent and honest employee, I would now be scared to submit an expense report. Please, don't bother with "you have nothing to fear" bullshit. You see someone get fired for an expense mis…

these arent mistakes. why do you think they are?

Saving money ISNT the goal. If they caught an employee stealing $20 from another employee's purse, it it would be cheaper to simply reimburse the victim $20, but obviously there is more to it. You dont want to employ thieves and condone theft.

Re: Meta fires staff for 'using free meal vouchers to buy household goods'

#129

Post by keybrd-intrrpt »

tyleo wrote: post #5
echoangle wrote: post #3

> That included one unnamed worker on a $400,000 salary, who said they had used their meal credits to buy household goods and groceries such as toothpaste and tea. I bet that was really worth it...

Seems like a bad exchange for both the employee and the company. TBH I feel Meta could have just ended the program for these folks rather than flat out firing them.

No, screw that. Collective punishment is BAD

Bad companies do this. They are so conflict-avoidant they would rather end useful programs instead of addressing the few bad-apples.

Good on Meta.

Re: Meta fires staff for 'using free meal vouchers to buy household goods'

#130

Post by keybrd-intrrpt »

SilverBirch wrote: post #93

We had this at my company (finance) during covid they had a generous Uber eats offer for food after work hours. Some employees (particularly new grads) realised they could pick the food up as they left or collect the food at the door as they left the office or redirect the order. remember at the time thinking this is stealing pennies when you’re paid incredibly well. Well it wasn’t pennies. HR filtered to find those…

Every single tech job I've had has had people like his.

I've seen people empty drink refrigerators into duffle bags before the weekend.

There was a guy who took dozens of travel-sized deodorants from the bathroom and kept them in his desk (and still didn't use them...)

There was someone who would pressure the cafeteria staff for 10 "to-go" meal containers.

All highly-paid engineers. Money doesn't buy class

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