Earlier quoted context omitted.
I consider myself a pretty average human programmer, and I was able to solve the logic puzzle and write a python program for it in ~10 mins. [0] I agree though, the people who are unable to solve this probably still have a theory of mind. It seems like we're setting a rather high bar. [0] https://pastebin.com/q33K0HJ1
With all due respect, if you wrote a python program for this in 10 minutes you are not an average programmer.
LLMs, Theory of Mind, and Cheryl's Birthday
121–130 of 150 posts
Re: LLMs, Theory of Mind, and Cheryl's Birthday
#122Earlier quoted context omitted.
I like the noise variant! The "everything can in one trip" variant is the one I've been using, and I was able to get 4o to get it right in one shot with enough couching, and o1-preview without couching, which convinced me (of what, I'm not sure). my other riddle is the car accident doctor son one, which 4o couldn't get but o1-preview does. I'll have to come up with more obscure riddles and not talk about them online…
Be careful with coaching. It's very easy to leak information. The point is to get it without letting it know. As for o1, well I've been using this for a year and a few big players have used it too. So remember that they get spoiled because they end up in the training set
Re: LLMs, Theory of Mind, and Cheryl's Birthday
#123Earlier quoted context omitted.
Be careful with coaching. It's very easy to leak information. The point is to get it without letting it know. As for o1, well I've been using this for a year and a few big players have used it too. So remember that they get spoiled because they end up in the training set
good point! problem is, I can't know what other people have spoiled it on either, so if we'd independently come up with the now spoiled "the boat can take all" variant, I can't know unless that gets revealed over Twitter or arvix or HN or wherever.
But, in this case we can study in a different way. Use things we are certain are spoiled. That's what the author here does.
But as an ML researcher, I'll let you know that I don't trust a single reasoning paper I've read.
You either have to start with the premise that the thing you're testing is in the training data (and thus spoiled), so you typically look at generalization and how robust it is. You can't prove reasoning this was but you can disprove this way. This also works for theory of mind (which is seems many HN readers failed to read the first paragraph).
The other way is you need to prove that the data isn't in training (for a strong condition you need to prove that it's not even indirectly in the data...). You still can't prove reasoning this way but you would build strong evidence that it is going on (proving reasoning is very tough, if possible). I think if this was shown, consistently, then most of the conversations about LLMs not reasoning would go away and we'd discuss like humans: capable of reasoning, but not necessarily always doing so.
But ML is in an existential crisis right now. Theory means nothing without experimentation but experimentation means nothing without theory. See von Neumann's elephant
Re: LLMs, Theory of Mind, and Cheryl's Birthday
#124> At least with respect to this problem, they had no theory of mind. This is very interesting and insightful, but I take issue with the above conclusion. Your average software engineer would probably fail to code up a python solution to this problem. But most people would agree that the average software engineer, and the average person, possesses some theory of mind. This seems to be a pattern I'm noticing with AI. T…
Can they? You can ask arbitrary questions in the Turing test. I doubt many models would be able successfully imitate humans in such adversarial conditions. Note that the Turing test doesn't require to judge to be unsophisticated or unknowledgeable about AI's capabilities or weaknesses. I believe that AI's are closer than ever passing the Turing test, but I'm sceptical until I see it.
Re: LLMs, Theory of Mind, and Cheryl's Birthday
#125> At least with respect to this problem, they had no theory of mind. This is very interesting and insightful, but I take issue with the above conclusion. Your average software engineer would probably fail to code up a python solution to this problem. But most people would agree that the average software engineer, and the average person, possesses some theory of mind. This seems to be a pattern I'm noticing with AI. T…
> Now, your run-of-the-mill LLM can breeze through the turing test. Can they? You can ask arbitrary questions in the Turing test. I doubt many models would be able successfully imitate humans in such adversarial conditions. Note that the Turing test doesn't require to judge to be unsophisticated or unknowledgeable about AI's capabilities or weaknesses. I believe that AI's are closer than ever passing the Turing test,…
Re: LLMs, Theory of Mind, and Cheryl's Birthday
#126> At least with respect to this problem, they had no theory of mind. This is very interesting and insightful, but I take issue with the above conclusion. Your average software engineer would probably fail to code up a python solution to this problem. But most people would agree that the average software engineer, and the average person, possesses some theory of mind. This seems to be a pattern I'm noticing with AI. T…
I consider myself a pretty average human programmer, and I was able to solve the logic puzzle and write a python program for it in ~10 mins. [0] I agree though, the people who are unable to solve this probably still have a theory of mind. It seems like we're setting a rather high bar. [0] https://pastebin.com/q33K0HJ1
Maybe that counts, I don't know, I'm genuinely asking.
Re: LLMs, Theory of Mind, and Cheryl's Birthday
#127> At least with respect to this problem, they had no theory of mind. This is very interesting and insightful, but I take issue with the above conclusion. Your average software engineer would probably fail to code up a python solution to this problem. But most people would agree that the average software engineer, and the average person, possesses some theory of mind. This seems to be a pattern I'm noticing with AI. T…
The goalposts will continue to move until GDP improves.
Suppose nation X or power bloc Y's GDP improves due to ML, will nation Z without increasing GDP continue to move the goalposts?
Re: LLMs, Theory of Mind, and Cheryl's Birthday
#128Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Now, your run-of-the-mill LLM can breeze through the turing test. Can they? You can ask arbitrary questions in the Turing test. I doubt many models would be able successfully imitate humans in such adversarial conditions. Note that the Turing test doesn't require to judge to be unsophisticated or unknowledgeable about AI's capabilities or weaknesses. I believe that AI's are closer than ever passing the Turing test,…
What kind of questions would you ask to distinguish?
Re: LLMs, Theory of Mind, and Cheryl's Birthday
#129Earlier quoted context omitted.
What kind of questions would you ask to distinguish?
For me the simplest way to test would be to first ask specific knowledge, and then ask where it learnt that knowledge, and check the reference. Currently they fail spectacularly, and the most useful next step would be to use source-aware training
Re: LLMs, Theory of Mind, and Cheryl's Birthday
#130The problem with evaluating LLMs is that there's a random component, and the specific wording of prompts is so important. I asked Claude to explain the problem, then write python to solve it. When it ran there was an exception, so I pasted that back in and got the correct answer. I'm not sure what this says about theory of mind (the first script it wrote was organized into steps based on who knew what when, so it see…
Of the two or three languages these things have enough training data on to hit "above average StackOverflow answer on demand", I'm being forced to re-evaluate my sometimes strident forecasts that LLM coding was mostly hype. I'm not quite ready to eat crow yet, but I've made sure there's clean silverware in case I need to (and I will admit it if I was conclusively full of shit).
It's still wildly over-stated and it's still a delicate game to come out ahead on the correct code after the hallucination rabbit holes have been deducted, but in certain verticals LLMs have become my first stop.
In the "strictly better than the sort of people who do this" regime is clickbait tech blog posts. I now almost always have them write me some fairly generic rant with a catchy title when I'm in the mood to read the sort of shit that gets frontpage because title. I don't post them because I'm not a spammer, but for my own private amusement? Beats the hell out of basically any low-detail technology essay. In a macabre way that's to me the more interesting commentary on theory of mind.