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Earth Is on the Brink of Breaching a 7th of Nine 'Planetary Boundaries'

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Re: Earth Is on the Brink of Breaching a 7th of Nine 'Planetary Boundaries'

#121

Post by exe34 »

FrustratedMonky wrote: post #112
exe34 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if 7 of the 9 are highly correlated, then breaching all 7 isn't as bad as it sounds, it's just one boundary.

Are they thought? Guess that is part of the meme, anybody can say "well correlation isn't causation" and sound kind of smart. Then the onus is on the other to go prove they aren't correlated, when they are not obviously correlated to begin with, so then need to devolve into a deep dive showing percentages of correlation. It's part of the 'easy to produce BS' type argument. I'd push back and say. Ok, then show how 7 o…

I'll direct your attention to the first word in my post - "if". I'm just as lazy as you are!

Re: Earth Is on the Brink of Breaching a 7th of Nine 'Planetary Boundaries'

#122

Post by anigbrowl »

hodgesrm wrote: post #80
anigbrowl wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time I say the solution is to restrain those who callously and deliberately profit off climate damage, by force if necessary, people get upset and downvote me, metaphorically speaking. But all the 'yay humanity let's all cooperate in pursuit of a solution' thinkers are demonstrably failing, because selfish people make up the largest bloc (though still a minority) of humanity. People who go to a museum and throw…

> But even if they were actually destroying art, their point is that many extractive industries are actually destroying the environment and killing off whole species... How does trashing art actually solve the problem? It just makes people with normal level of concern who are actually trying to do something look as if they are in cahoots with people who are bonkers.

You know how: it makes people talk about an issue they would otherwise prefer to ignore. The fact that some people's first instinct is to reject them (using weasel words like 'bonkers') is beside the point. The use of repetition and attention-grabbing techniques to drive an argument home is a well-established PR and political communication tactic.

Re: Earth Is on the Brink of Breaching a 7th of Nine 'Planetary Boundaries'

#123

Post by cwillu »

bbor wrote: post #19
cwillu wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“These boundaries are not tipping points—it’s possible to recover from passing them” Debatable whether that is completely walking back the headline, but the headline is clearly trying to give the impression it's irreversible without actually making a claim that could thereby be defeated: “brink”, “breaching”, “boundaries” “support life” are all very suggestive of irreversible doom, and yet…

Ah. I see where you’re coming from but don’t really agree - I think you’re (understandably!) bringing in that assumption yourself from general climate worries. Countries have boundaries that you can come back from after crossing, as do people. I mean, they’re kinda describing the framework directly. How else would you phrase it? “About to cross a line indicating serious danger”? Maybe “approaching a scientific benchm…

Like I said in another reply, the applicability of “walking it back” is certainly subject to debate. I'm not arguing the point, just pulling out the obvious triggering line and explaining where I think the sentiment is coming from.

Re: Earth Is on the Brink of Breaching a 7th of Nine 'Planetary Boundaries'

#124

Post by anigbrowl »

fzeroracer wrote: post #72
anigbrowl wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time I say the solution is to restrain those who callously and deliberately profit off climate damage, by force if necessary, people get upset and downvote me, metaphorically speaking. But all the 'yay humanity let's all cooperate in pursuit of a solution' thinkers are demonstrably failing, because selfish people make up the largest bloc (though still a minority) of humanity. People who go to a museum and throw…

> People who go to a museum and throw paint at a work of art (which is protected behind glass) are routinely condemned and sent to jail. They're condemned because their way of protesting is worthless. Protesting only works if it either inconveniences people enough to trigger action or if it targets the people actually responsible. If they truly believed that climate change was a critical issue, then they should take…

This is one way of inconveniencing people. Road closures are another way. Like many protest tactics, it doesn't bring about change, until it does. The Just Stop Oil protesters are using an 'earned media' strategy that has proven successful for decades. Publicity stunts draw attention, and even negative attention (in the short term) often yields dividends over the long term.

Re: Earth Is on the Brink of Breaching a 7th of Nine 'Planetary Boundaries'

#125

Post by anigbrowl »

fzeroracer wrote: post #100
bbor wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The movement was characterized by nonviolent mass protests and civil disobedience following highly publicized events such as the lynching of Emmett Till. These included boycotts such as the Montgomery bus boycott, "sit-ins" in Greensboro and Nashville, a series of protests during the Birmingham campaign, and a march from Selma to Montgomery. Eh, none of that seems to fall into either of the buckets you describe, othe…

> Eh, none of that seems to fall into either of the buckets you describe, other than maybe sit-ins "targeting" racist owners of restaurants. Plus, I know this is annoying but... source? Any data backing that claim? You do realize that said protest caused mass inconvenience, right? It was upending a lot of the racist norms at the time which in turn triggered waves of violence against black protesters which is what sta…

This is exactly Just Stop Oil's strategy and it's working.

Re: Earth Is on the Brink of Breaching a 7th of Nine 'Planetary Boundaries'

#126

Post by [deleted] »

anigbrowl wrote: post #119
RandomThoughts3 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We choose instead to condemn the people who draw attention to this. We condemn them because what they do is dumb not because they draw attention to climate change. It’s the same thing as glorifying a teenager skipping school. Climate activists are incredibly good at killing their own credibility. That’s why most people don’t bank on them to change anything. > But all the 'yay humanity let's all cooperate in pursuit…

It's not dumb because it fulfils their communication goal. You go tell the Nigerian This is trying to displace responsibility for fossil fuel extraction to some remote place with different incentives. Climate activists like Just Stop Oil are concerned with the policy choices, lobbying, subsidies, infrastructure, and overconsumption of fossil fuels in the developed countries where they live. Demanding those change is…

[deleted]

Re: Earth Is on the Brink of Breaching a 7th of Nine 'Planetary Boundaries'

#127

Post by bbor »

Brybry wrote: post #59
bbor wrote: post #11

Never loved this framework because the arbitrary quantization can make things look better than they are (“sure temps are up 4° but we’re still banning aerosols, so drill baby drill!”) but it’s certainly a good starter framework for getting people’s attention. And to those that read this and just give up: please don’t. We’ve done incredible things as a species, and today’s world is not based in unchangeable natural co…

Some of us who give up won't have grandchildren because we're not having children either.

I’m in that boat with you! But my family planning decisions do not excuse me from the shared human endeavor of morality.

The question stands: what will you tell the kids visiting us in the nursing home?

Re: Earth Is on the Brink of Breaching a 7th of Nine 'Planetary Boundaries'

#128

Post by fzeroracer »

anigbrowl wrote: post #124
fzeroracer wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People who go to a museum and throw paint at a work of art (which is protected behind glass) are routinely condemned and sent to jail. They're condemned because their way of protesting is worthless. Protesting only works if it either inconveniences people enough to trigger action or if it targets the people actually responsible. If they truly believed that climate change was a critical issue, then they should take…

This is one way of inconveniencing people. Road closures are another way. Like many protest tactics, it doesn't bring about change, until it does. The Just Stop Oil protesters are using an 'earned media' strategy that has proven successful for decades. Publicity stunts draw attention, and even negative attention (in the short term) often yields dividends over the long term.

Who are they inconveniencing? Who are they making reconsider their stance? What are their explicit demands? A protest needs a target audience, a target and a set of demands. They have none of the above.

Occupy Wall Street for example had two of the three, but ultimately failed in most of its goals because it didn't have a concrete demand. And that was an example of a protest on a far larger scale.

Re: Earth Is on the Brink of Breaching a 7th of Nine 'Planetary Boundaries'

#129

Post by gmuslera »

RandomThoughts3 wrote: post #3

The Planetary Boundaries framework is so bad, I don’t understand why it’s so popular. Most of the "boundaries" are directly correlated. Most of them are fairly arbitrary. It’s such an awful tool to discuss the actual very serious issue it underlines. I wish it would just disappear. Just to be clear, there is nothing magical about most of these boundaries. The situation is not in any way suddenly worse today than yest…

If the floor have 0º of inclination you can walk up and down without risk of falling down, 10º is still good, 20º? probably on. But there is some point after which most people could slip down.

There, that is boundary. It is not a meaningless line, just that the odds of everything falling down gets high enough.

Re: Earth Is on the Brink of Breaching a 7th of Nine 'Planetary Boundaries'

#130

Post by redleggedfrog »

superb_dev wrote: post #33
redleggedfrog wrote: post #29

Way back in the SimEarth days I got introduced to the Gaia concept, which at the time seemed a little hokey, but as time goes on seems more and more apt. Not trying to sound like Agent Smith, but sure seems like the earth is treating humans like a virus and is warming itself up to get rid of us. We had a long time to see it coming, but it's not politically popular to acknowledge it, and here in the U.S. you can signa…

The earth is not warming itself, WE are warming the earth

I take your point - admit it's a leaky abstraction.
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