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Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

innocenceproject.org

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Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#121

Post by [deleted] »

knodi123 wrote: post #109
JeremyNT wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's plenty of evidence. He confessed to his girlfriend, and a cellmate. Be careful, this is hearsay and not evidence. Those people claim that he confessed to them, but there is a lot more context. Here is what the linked story says about the "he confessed" part: > The investigation had gone cold until a jail inmate named Henry Cole, a man with a lengthy record, claimed that Mr. Williams confessed to him that he…

> Both of these individuals were known fabricators Careful- it we're considering their history, then Mr Williams has a history of over a dozen counts of armed violence, burglary, robbery, and assault. > this is hearsay and not evidence Conflicting reports say that Asano provided verified information that had not been publicized. And Asano refused a cash reward for relaying the confessions she had heard. Regardless, h…

[deleted]

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#122

Post by _DeadFred_ »

EForEndeavour wrote: post #103
DoughnutHole wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is there are two different standards of proof at different points of the legal process. Conviction requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt — all the onus is on the prosecution to prove that you indisputably committed that crime. In this case unreliable evidence was used without which this standard likely would not have been met. Once you’ve been convicted (in this case on shoddy evidence) the onus is on…

So conviction is a "trap door" of evidence weight? If someone is convicted based on evidence that is later shown to be totally insufficient to support that conviction, this new information does nothing to overturn the conviction?

A lot of rights (like your right to remain silent, your right to a speedy trial, your right to bear arms, your right to vote, your rights to be free from search without reason) have been interpreted only apply up to the point of conviction. So yes, things get MUCH tougher once convicted as many rights no longer apply to you or are stripped from you.

In this case, up until conviction you are presumed innocent and guilt must be proven. Post conviction most of the appeals process is bared if not filed within 14 days of conviction (it used to be forever but then the US Justice system decided woohhh there that's too long and burdensome on the Justice system so 14 days was deemed a reasonable change to the previous 'forever'. A totally reasonable happy middle). After 14 days from conviction really the only relief available is to prove actual innocence, a much higher and more difficult standard to meet.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#124

Post by makomk »

diogenes_atx wrote: post #104
knodi123 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's plenty of evidence. He confessed to his girlfriend, and a cellmate. He pawned the victim's possessions. He was seen disposing of bloody clothes. He already had 15 felony convictions in addition to offenses related to Ms. Gayle's murder: robbery (2), armed criminal action (2), assault (2), burglary (4), stealing (3), stealing a motor vehicle, and unlawful use of a weapon. Now, as to whether this evidence is so…

As stated in the article written by the legal scholars at the Innocence Project: > "There is no reliable evidence proving that Marcellus Williams committed the crime for which he is scheduled to be executed on Sept. 24. The State destroyed or corrupted the evidence that could conclusively prove his innocence and the available DNA and other forensic crime-scene evidence does not match him." DNA evidence is based on pr…

As far as I can tell, this isn't actually true: "the DNA evidence that was not destroyed by the state is exculpatory". The Innocence Project are being very careful with their wording here. Initially, they relied on trace DNA on the knife that didn't match the accused murderer, but that ended up being from someone in the prosecutor's office handling it after it had been processed for forensic evidence. Then they tried to argue that this showed the state had destroyed evidence which would've proved his innocence, but the courts didn't buy it because all available evidence suggests the killer's DNA was simply never on the knife. (Which isn't that surprising - DNA evidence isn't perfect and gloves exist.) The other "forensic crime scene evidence" seems to be hothingburgers like a few non-matching hairs in a house that'd had a large number of people going in and out in the recent past.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#125

Post by dpkirchner »

nomilk wrote: post #21
spacechild1 wrote: post #8

There is no place for the death penalty in a civilized country!

Suppose we lived in a world where it was possible to know someone's guilt or innocence with strictly 100% confidence. Curious to know if your views would change? Note the cost of incarceration is around ~$70k/year; enough to save lives, house people, heal people, feed people etc if put to other uses.

Suppose we could see everything that happened in the past, perfectly, and see in to the minds of everyone. We could save dollars!

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#126

Post by giraffe_lady »

01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote: post #113
EasyMark wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As well as the US Supreme Court

[flagged]

Democrats had cumulative decades of opportunity to instate abortion access in national law and declined to ever do so. All of the things you're pointing out are true but downstream of that.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#127

Post by giraffe_lady »

swat535 wrote: post #114
kergonath wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being Christian is about forgiving and loving your neighbours, isn’t it?

Yes however in Christian theology it's both forgiveness _and_ repentance (which requires a penance), thus it doesn't mean you are free of consequences just because you have been forgiven. Additionally, loving your neighbour means calling on God's mercy which is willing the Good of the other (the definition of "what is good?" is answered differently in Christianity). Finally, not everyone is your neighbour (Jesus also…

"Your enemies are still your neighbors" is entirely consistent with those statements and in fact was how it was understood by the consensus mainstream of christianity until very recently, and is still how it is understood in most variants other than american protestantism.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#128

Post by giraffe_lady »

anonzzzies wrote: post #57

Still not sure with so many of the (esp right leaning) in the US claiming to be christian, can also accept this as a punishment. But I get nonsense begets more nonsense.

A large part of the organized activism against the death penalty is also run by christians, especially catholics and orthodox who are a lot more consistent on this.

It's not the christianity per se that makes them bloodthirsty. Contemporary american evangelical christianity is a novel social-political-religious movement and in some theologically significant ways has broken with near-universal christian tradition. Trying to understand it purely as a religion is too incomplete.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#129

Post by spacechild1 »

anonzzzies wrote: post #57

Still not sure with so many of the (esp right leaning) in the US claiming to be christian, can also accept this as a punishment. But I get nonsense begets more nonsense.

Also, it's often the same people who claim to be "pro life".

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#130

Post by xboxnolifes »

JeremyNT wrote: post #88
knodi123 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's plenty of evidence. He confessed to his girlfriend, and a cellmate. He pawned the victim's possessions. He was seen disposing of bloody clothes. He already had 15 felony convictions in addition to offenses related to Ms. Gayle's murder: robbery (2), armed criminal action (2), assault (2), burglary (4), stealing (3), stealing a motor vehicle, and unlawful use of a weapon. Now, as to whether this evidence is so…

> There's plenty of evidence. He confessed to his girlfriend, and a cellmate. Be careful, this is hearsay and not evidence. Those people claim that he confessed to them, but there is a lot more context. Here is what the linked story says about the "he confessed" part: > The investigation had gone cold until a jail inmate named Henry Cole, a man with a lengthy record, claimed that Mr. Williams confessed to him that he…

It's not hearsay to go to the witness stand and say the defendant told you something. That defendant is there in court and is able to defend themselves.
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