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Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

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Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#121

Post by Woeps »

fransje26 wrote: post #67
RickarySanchez wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well they're not trying to screw over the rest of Europe. They're just gaining a competitive advantage by offering favorable deals. Its something that countries have been doing for much of their existence. To claim their screwing over the rest of Europe is just anti-competitive nonsense. The Netherlands does the same stuff just not as successfully

> The Netherlands does the same stuff just not as successfully Well, that's absolutely not orthogonal to the "screwing over Europe" statement. That simply makes two countries trying to gain an unfair competitive advantage. Nicely hypocritical from the Netherlands by the way, as they are always the ones on their high horses complaining about the financial laxness of the southern and eastern European countries, while a…

Regarding the Netherlands, It looked like they where working and making good progress of dismantling this system. But in the end it was all a façade and feet dragging... Now I just hope that with our current government it wont get worse.

But hey, we voted for these muppets. So if the EU again fines us we deserve it.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#122

Post by jeppester »

techpression wrote: post #5

Why is it Apple that has to pay for what Ireland did wrong? Genuinely curious here, it's not like Ireland is some random dude on the internet selling stolen goods and Apple should've known better.

Apple is selling to the whole of EU. Is it unreasonable to conclude that they should have known to follow the EU laws rather engaging in a tax scheme offered by Ireland?

I'm not entirely sure what to think myself about the fairness of this. But going forward I definitely prefer that corporations will have to be careful about engaging in unfair tax deals in the EU.

Otherwise those corporations would just be looking for the next country to take advantage of - risk free.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#123

Post by piltdownman »

izacus wrote: post #102
fullspectrumdev wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s interesting is the deal Apple got was fine under Irish law at the time. Nobody foresaw how things would pan out literally decades later.

Irish law yes, EU law no. It's like saying that you couldn't forsee a state law overriding a lower level region/county law.

That's not how the EU works. To give just one major example, our constitution regularly overrules EU law - Ireland has to go to referendum for Treaties - e.g. The Lisbon Treaty.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#124

Post by yieldcrv »

andy_ppp wrote: post #51

It would just be really good if companies stopped avoiding tax. Most countries are already pretty much bankrupt - it's worth thinking about for every debt (US National Debt is $35.35 trillion!!) there is a rich person on the end of it with the loan as an asset earning interest. If companies avoid tax and rich people avoid tax it means more tax for normal people who work for a living.

Whaaaaat?

A) These bankrupt countries are exactly why we should think twice about funding their spending habit, with reevaluation only when they address their spending habit

B) These companies are tax compliant, barring when the ECJ rules against them

C) if what you meant was equivalent taxation - no amount of taxation of profits or income would fill these bankrupt countries budget holes

D) the countries tell you exactly how not to pay tax, they incentivize certain transactions and tax the remainder of funds that weren't involved. (The ECJ overruled an entire country, with retroactive logic)

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#125

Post by Rinzler89 »

izacus wrote: post #101
InsomniacL wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This means many people living in Ireland got less government resources than they would have No it doesn't. Ireland did this deal to benefit from it. What they lost from direct tax in one area they gained in others. Had Ireland not made this deal, it's unlikely it would have become the conduit for Apple profits from around the world. The subject of the ruling contains "concerning tax rulings issued by Ireland in fav…

Can you explain where exactly did Ireland gain benefit from not collecting these taxes?

Because getting even And that's the problem right there. It's a constant race to the bottom between EU states where the EU taxpayers are the loosers and the corpos are the winners.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#126

Post by sweezyjeezy »

dgrin91 wrote: post #99
andy_ppp wrote: post #51

It would just be really good if companies stopped avoiding tax. Most countries are already pretty much bankrupt - it's worth thinking about for every debt (US National Debt is $35.35 trillion!!) there is a rich person on the end of it with the loan as an asset earning interest. If companies avoid tax and rich people avoid tax it means more tax for normal people who work for a living.

This is a very naive way of thinking about debt. Cash has a time value. Cash now is worth more than cash later. I have a mortgage. This mortgage is worth more than the cash I own. That doesn't mean I'm bankrupt. The mortgage is paid on a fixed schedule over 30 years, and during those 30 years I'll have a home and be able to accrue other assets. If I didn't get a mortgage then I would still be saving for my home. The…

I think it's rarely valid to compare countries' economics to your own personal finance, macroeconomics are a lot more complicated. Example: for employed people, going into (or avoiding) debt generally won't affect their yearly wages, but analogously it can for countries (e.g. well spent debt can stimulate economic growth).

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#127

Post by quonn »

piltdownman wrote: post #123
izacus wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Irish law yes, EU law no. It's like saying that you couldn't forsee a state law overriding a lower level region/county law.

That's not how the EU works. To give just one major example, our constitution regularly overrules EU law - Ireland has to go to referendum for Treaties - e.g. The Lisbon Treaty.

EU law has precedence, period.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#128

Post by piltdownman »

Y-bar wrote: post #21
matthewmorgan wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about Luxembourg?

Which secret sweetheart deals does Luxembourg have? The secrecy and exclusivity were central to the judgement. The EU requires a level playing field for all companies, which is why individual governments striking secret tax deals not available to all companies are seen as an illegal thing. I bet if Ireland had opened the same tax deal they did to Apple, to all companies this would not even have been a matter for the…

Yeah this theoretical half-reading of wikipedia always leaves out the practical considerations.

This level playing field lasts right up to the point where each individual government of the Eurozone is mandated to cover the losses of their private sectors, including banking. The days of Germany dictating to their neighbours how their countries should be run are over outside of the ECB and the Euro. If they have a grievance then they can go through the EU courts like Germany did with the Apple case.

Big countries signed up to a common market without tax harmonisation and they would leave if it wasn't working for them, just like the UK did.

Guess which country was forced to bail out Europe's banks and unsecured bondholders in the last crisis? We also don’t benefit by the setting of ECB rates like Germany does, and we're going to get slammed as they rebalance their books following pandemic social payments.

Ireland gets the blame for Apple not paying its fair share of taxes but the issues is entirely a US one: Apple is a US company, yet the US won't force Apple to pay taxes on its foreign earnings. In contrast, if you're a US citizen who resides elsewhere, you're still expected to pay US taxes...

In France the statutory corporate tax rate is 33.3% while the actual effective tax rate is lower than Ireland's 12.5% at 8.2%.

Luxembourg has a statutory rate of 22.5% but an effective rate of just 4.1%.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#129

Post by InsomniacL »

izacus wrote: post #101
InsomniacL wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This means many people living in Ireland got less government resources than they would have No it doesn't. Ireland did this deal to benefit from it. What they lost from direct tax in one area they gained in others. Had Ireland not made this deal, it's unlikely it would have become the conduit for Apple profits from around the world. The subject of the ruling contains "concerning tax rulings issued by Ireland in fav…

Can you explain where exactly did Ireland gain benefit from not collecting these taxes?

You can google why do countries give tax breaks.

Are you suggesting that Ireland did not benefit from this illegal deal?

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#130

Post by simonh »

andy_ppp wrote: post #51

It would just be really good if companies stopped avoiding tax. Most countries are already pretty much bankrupt - it's worth thinking about for every debt (US National Debt is $35.35 trillion!!) there is a rich person on the end of it with the loan as an asset earning interest. If companies avoid tax and rich people avoid tax it means more tax for normal people who work for a living.

>there is a rich person on the end of it with the loan as an asset earning interest.

About half of treasuries are held by the Fed or foreign investors which largely means other governments and foreign companies. Most of the rest are owned by pension funds, banks, local government, insurance companies, etc.

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